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New ethics courses in computer science

nytimes.com

101–110 of 156 posts

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#101
post #23

All of these noble ideas of ethics and social responsibility are great for everyone that feels bound by them themselves. Many of the rest can't be bothered. People who have to be taught that the missile they're building is going to kill people and that they should feel bad about it probably already knows that the missile they're building is going to kill people and they don't feel bad about it. You see this issue com…

Your example isn't interesting. It's starkly violent and you isolate the builders from the decision that results in violence.

In many scenarios, the people building a thing will also work to push it out into society and inflict consequences less than death. Do you think they should not consider the consequences prior to "disrupting" things? The fact that some other people might not bother to consider the ramifications of their actions isn't an excuse to act irresponsibly.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#102
I'm giving a talk in March at LibrePlanet 2018 entited "The Ethics Void". The lack of ethics in CS education is a core component of the talk. I'm neck-deep in my talk research right now, so if you are a, student, educator, or anyone else with thoughts on ethics in CS, I'd love to hear from you:

https://mikegerwitz.com/talks

Unfortunately, the codes of ethics, courses, etc that do exist largely ignore user freedoms (in a software freedom sense) and the host of ethical concerns that come with it. If you have examples that _do_ address those issues, I'd really appreciate hearing about it.

And please join us at LP2018 (hosted at MIT)!

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#103
post #13

Technologists aren't doctors. Doctors are a necessity because people have an incessant need to stay alive. Technologists aren't a fundamental necessity to society. We are business people. The only rules/ethics that govern us are business rules/ethics. Some might argue, "but technology is required for us to survive". It's not. We've survived plenty without it. Technology is required for us to thrive.

This is obviously wrong on so many levels, but just to point out the most glaring flaw: How is ethics only relevant when people's survival is at stake?

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#104

We already have ethics in the philosophy department. I'm was CS major and I took ethics and liked it so much I double majored in CS and philosophy. Ethics has no place in CS, nor more than ethics is required in biology or physics or algebra. If universities want students to learn about ethics, then make ethics 101 a "required elective".

Your comparisons are rather odd, given that most universities do have ethics requirements for the sciences, focused on examples from the field in question.

Biology: Do not repeat the Tuskegee experiements. Do not be the next Andrew Wakefield.

Physics: Do not falsify data. Do not plagiarize results. Do not play fast and loose with statistics.

I can definitely see corresponding examples being made for issues that affect CS.

CS: Do not collect customer information that is not needed for the task at hand. Do not describe your machine-learning model as being free of bias based on race/sex, if you was trained with real-world data that may be biased.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#105

We already have ethics in the philosophy department. I'm was CS major and I took ethics and liked it so much I double majored in CS and philosophy. Ethics has no place in CS, nor more than ethics is required in biology or physics or algebra. If universities want students to learn about ethics, then make ethics 101 a "required elective".

There are many elements of ethics unique to software developers, that should be taught outside of a basic ethics course

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#106
post #96

I grew tired of arguments supporting fleecing the users that were basically "We aren't making them do this, they choose to do it." I have heard them put forward at nearly every company I've worked at, at various levels and through various departments. At Google it was always "We don't take an editorial stand, this might be just what some of our customers want." That has been the most interesting aspect of their recen…

Imagine the form of this logic applied to politics. 'We don't have any policy positions or visionary goals. Those come from what our voters want'. Ostensibly, this is what the system is designed to do. But of one believes elected officials have no agency or accountability, they are fools. Now politics is different from media, though. Maybe one way is that a media platform is remaining impartial which a politician can…

If "the system" you're referring to is the USA, then no, it's not designed for that.

We elect people based on ideology and character. They may have a few central policy platforms, but there are so many laws and resolutions passed that they cannot pre-advertise their positions or poll their constituents for every one.

Hence, why we are a republic (or representative democracy, if you will). We elect people on the basis of trusting they will do the right thing, because noone has the time to track municipality, state and federal votes.

Among the many experiments on local organization early communist China had was essentially a pure democracy (for local matters), and the inevitable result was there were so many votes that people were overwhelmed and disengaged.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#107
post #88
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At Google it was always "We don't take an editorial stand, this might be just what some of our customers want." It's an interesting choice for companies, and Google in particular. Either be proactive and get accused of forcing your customers behavior or having ulterior motives based on money (e.g. Google's ad blocking program), or let them do what they want and get accused of turning a blind eye because it makes mo…

I'm curious, what value does your ticket brokerage create?

For customers, liquidity and price accuracy, ticket availability, and the chance for discount tickets (in the case where brokers make a bad call or execute badly, which happens often).

For venues and promoters, guaranteed attendance and immediate cashflow (sell 50,000 tickets at an average of $80 immediately instead of spread over 9-12 months, that's money that can be invested back into their business or something else, and reduces risk).

For artists and promoters, the capability to hold back chunks of inventory for later sale on the secondary market at increased cost. This allows them to take advantage of a functioning market to make more money while also avoiding fan displeasure at high ticket prices. Also, the ability to say they sold out X size venue in Y time, which can denote popularity (or be used to claim a level of popularity).

Brokers take on risk for a possible reward. If you're buying tickets that aren't intended for immediate resale, and are holding them for 9-12 months (common), anything can happen in that time period. That artist may become less popular, or even just get sick and cancel much of the tour (in which case you just had your money tied up for months, at best losing out on other investments and at worst paying some percentage on a credit account), which is a loss.

It's not really all that different than other financial markets.

Edit: As much as some artists like to complain about the secondary market, there's a really simple solution that just works. Increase supply. Garth Brooks plays twice a night and multiple days in a row in the same venue at each stop on a tour. Kid Rock will play seven consecutive days in a row in Detroit. The downside? They move the risk from the brokers to the venue, promoters and artist, because they may lose money if they don't fill enough seats. This itself is an illustration of the role the secondary market plays, and indeed heavily bought events with inflated prices often get additional dates added which depress the market prices.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#108
post #97

I've been a software engineer for over 12 years and have never had to make a single ethical decision. It's always, here's the spec: build it.

Whether or not you choose to follow orders _is_ an ethical decision.

The laws align pretty well with Ethics. Most things that are unethical are also illegal and hence won't be built by any legitimate company.

How often do you think a company chooses to build something that's unethical but legal? Have you ever heard of a engineer who said to the PM or boss, "hey, i'm not going to build that because it's unethical". I've never seen that happen. have you?

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#109
In an IT-related class I had in High School, part of the course was a lesson in ethics.

Part of the "lesson" taught that if you have a good/unique idea, you should patent it, lest someone else get the value from it before you do, and that you should keep your software closed-source lest someone pirate it.

There was no voice for free software or against the absurdity of software patents outside my own vocal retorts.

This was part of a district-wide course, and probably contained popular ideas used by many other districts.

Another thing I see in schools/colleges is that Microsoft will give free licenses to the school and students for their software so long as it is used and taught. Free software takes a backseat, and people are taught to use - and prefer - Microsoft's proprietary tools. Microsoft gets to control their target audience, and be seen as doing something generous, not abusive.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#110
post #8

Some recent TechnoScifi has done a really interesting job getting this sort of stuff into the general public. Black Mirror, Altered Carbon are both terrific and dive into tech ethics to different extents, and the outreach there is many millions of viewers. That's sort of an interesting potential take on this - how do you take ethical questions and get drastically wider outreach for them (vs a static class). Revisioni…

> Black Mirror, Altered Carbon are both terrific and dive into tech ethics to different extents, and the outreach there is many millions of viewers.

Also Electric Dreams.

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