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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#101
post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

One reason I see especially in larger companies that there is specific hiring headcount allocated. Always it doesn’t specify if the allocation is for junior/mid/senior level. So to optimize your team’s output, you tend to look for the mid/senior and not even consider junior people.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A key point that you're missing is that junior devs are likely to jump ship at least once in their career trajectory before they become senior devs. So yes, junior devs do need to be trained by someone , but if you're going to put in a lot of work and not receive much of the benefit, it's not in your best interest. There's a variety of reasons for why devs jump ship so often (including compensation), but unless you c…

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

That's true but it also misses the point: A portion of the limited money-pool you could have used for their raise is already gone, spend in the extra costs (direct or opportunity) of the training period.

There isn't much of a "raw mercenary economics" argument for training (which the MBA types prefer), you've got to talk about intangibles like loyalty, goodwill, social connections, etc.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#103
post #3

>the rate is anywhere from $190-$300 an hour Well there's your problem. Valley pricing. You can get Sr Devs much cheaper than that. Then you can afford to train up some juniors. I don't think that's the real problem though. Companies want you to take the risk/expense of learning a technology that might be obsolete next year. They'll pay you back in salary if you lucked up and mastered the right stack. If you didn't,…

>The other problem is most Sr.s don't want a Jr. coming in and making negative contributions. Sr.s are frequently the ones doing the interviews. They see most Jr.s as "What's a computer?" level talent that will start fires in production systems.

A system where a Jr can easily start fires is a system that's bound to fail. It means whatever you use for production is incredibly fragile and bound to be broken even by a more senior developer making a single mistake.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#104
I’m the cofounder of a YC-backed Computer Science academy (https://LambdaSchool.com/computer-science), and we’ve noticed a few things:

1. The junior dev market is flooded. It’s also flooded with people that cannot code. We’ve done quite a bit of analysis, and we’re talking 10% can write fizzbuzz.

Bootcamps are pumping people out as fast as they can collect money, and while some are solid juniors many are just completely lost. I’ve seen some code bootcamps with It’s also 95% of the same people who can’t code applying to every single job in existence. Remarkably many somehow get hired. Bootcamps as a whole have 100% earned their negative reputation. I can only imagine the learning curve encountered by some bootcamp grads.

As an aside, it’s not only bootcamps that pump out people that can’t code. Some CS programs are equally guilty, but probably not as many of them, and having four years to write code if you’re even a tiny bit self motivated is an enormous advantage. You give me a moderately intelligent person and I tell them to write code for four years and they’ll be hireable by the end for sure.

2. Many excellent companies, especially startups, have no appetite for junior developers whatsoever. Junior devs take a long time to integrate by definition, and rapidly moving companies don’t have the resources to care. It’s much, much easier to place juniors at mammoth companies that actually dedicate resources to training. A lot are just paying huge recruiter fees and bonuses to go after the people with experience.

3. Once you get even six months of experience the whole world opens up. I’ve never seen job security so quickly gained as a developer that has spent one year anywhere. Promotions come fast, offers come faster, and the big companies that actually are dedicated to investing in juniors see them poached for $30-50k extra by companies that don’t.

4. People that can still code absolutely do get hired, and quickly. We are dangerously close to 75% of the class that graduated 3 weeks ago being hired or contracted.

All that said, we take it for granted that we’re in an industry where people go from cold start to 6 figure salaries in 3-6 months. I’ve not aware of that ever having happened in the history of the world. It’s no longer write a couple lines of code and raise your hand for a job like it used to be, but software development is still an incredible industry to be in, and with a couple of years of experience you’ll reliably be complaining about salaries and working situations that almost any other industry would kill for.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#105
Having recently had to do a lot of hiring and also played too much FIFA, I couldn't help but wonder if a argument couldn't be made for software engineering job contacts to work more like soccer player contracts. One issue is you might hire a junior dev, train them and just when they start to provide value BigCorp makes them an offer they can't refuse and you are left with the bill. If on the other hand the was a contract where a new employer had to pay some amount of money to the previous employer that might help with the situation. Hiring a upcoming super star and coaching them might turn from a risk into a business model in itself. Of course there are lots of potential issues that would need to get figured out, but at least for junior devs this might be a net win.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

totally agree. I would say a good 10-20% do have some kind of contact in the industry though and get a job that way.

Honestly, I think a lot of what you are paying for with the boot camp is the promise that their network and industry contacts will help you. Otherwise it's pretty much impossible (at least in my view) to justify those tuition rates.

Having gone through a bootcamp, I can also say there's the "we know what we're getting," factor. The job I got hired into afterwards, they knew I would be competent to a certain degree because they'd already hired out of that bootcamp before, and the bootcamp had pretty strict standards about who made it to Career Day. That was a definite factor in my getting hired.

Not to say this would or wouldn't justify various tuition rates - but it's definitely part of the equation.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#107
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair enough. I agree with you; I also like to challenge myself with new things. But I like to go home at the end of the day too, you know? Sometimes I think programmer culture gets too self-flagellating.

I hate the whole side-project-after-work thing. Unless you have a real business idea to pursue I think 40 hours per week of focused work is plenty. There are a lot of other cool things in life.

I think there are a handful of other reasons to persue a side-project-after-work, but mostly they'll be highly self-motivated and individualistic. That's not a bad thing; it may just mean that it's not going to be something you spin into a business, but it's something that solves a need in your life, and as such you don't take very seriously.

If it means you're still learning something a little extra, that's great! If not, that's okay too.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#108
Are companies hiring differently, or are we just defining the terms differently?

"Junior developer" used to refer to someone who can program but who doesn't have a lot of practical experience.

Today "junior developer" refers to someone who can't program but who has a CS degree or went to a bootcamp, and there are more of those today as a proportion of the talent pool than there have ever been.

I think this failure of academic institutions to teach practical skills is diluting the talent pool, causing companies to favor more experienced engineers because they've been getting burned and don't trust their own (or academic institutions') ability to determine in advance whether a candidate will be a productive programmer or not.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A key point that you're missing is that junior devs are likely to jump ship at least once in their career trajectory before they become senior devs. So yes, junior devs do need to be trained by someone , but if you're going to put in a lot of work and not receive much of the benefit, it's not in your best interest. There's a variety of reasons for why devs jump ship so often (including compensation), but unless you c…

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

This is the answer, but they just won't listen. Management at so many firms have convinced themselves that developers leave because of all these magical reasons that aren't either

1) they're dissatisfied with their pay and you're not listening

2) they're dissatisfied with their working conditions (bullpens or open offices anyone?)

so they'll never keep their best people and they'll never learn.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, where are you based at?

Australia & haven't heard of junior shortages anywhere around the country, I would hazard a guess that this applies to most places that aren't this overinflated Mecca of programmers

That's weird, I'm in Sydney and last year I sent around more than 100 resumes over the span of 6 months, only to land an intern position in a terrible "startup like" company, where I was underpaid and overworked. I had to quit after burning out in a few months. I know of several other juniors with this same issue.
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