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Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

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Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#101
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10^8 is a hundred million people, so yeah, it's safe to say the Earth can support well over that many humans.

Oops, I was brain dead there. I meant 10^11. Or maybe even 10^12.

In other words 100 billion to 1 trillion. The world’s land area, excluding Antarctica, is about 50 million sq. miles. With a comfortable population density of 1000 ppl/sqm (like in South Korea, Holland, Israel, or the state of New Jersey) you would get to 50 billion (same as Trantor). The population density of Singapore is close to 20k ppl/sqm, that would give you 1 trillion.

If you are willing to pad the Earth with buildings 16 km high, you could pack at least 1000 times more people, more likely 1 million times more.

Maybe that letter to Science mentioned 10^18?

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#102
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'll just have to study up on the tech. IIRC there was a fairly quick LIDAR demo put on by a team at MIT that scanned the campus and surrounding areas in a relatively brief amount of time using a drone, I think. My ignorance on the subject of LIDAR has me wondering why we can't use a faster traveling vehicle, or would it be possible to do perform scans with something like a fleet of balloons that stream the d…

Some rudimentary googling, MIT campus is 168 acres or .26 sq miles. So the 810 sq miles in 3 years is still pretty impressive.

MIT also has wifi. And power outlets.

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#103

This highly corroborates Charles C Mann's book 1491: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the... From wikipedia: The book presents recent research findings in different fields that suggest human populations in the Western Hemisphere—that is, the indigenous peoples of the Americas—were more numerous, had arrived earlier, were more sophisticated culturally, and controlled and shaped the natural land…

> Charles C Mann's book 1491

That's not the guy though putting forward the claim that Chinese admiral Zheng He made it all the way to America?

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it also says things like horses, chariots, steel, and other anachronistic things existed in the pre-Columbian Americas. There is no evidence (to date) to support any of those claims. Horses definitively existed in (far enough) precolumbian America. The dominant belief seems to be that they died out (perhaps due to human hunting) at or shortly after the end of the Pleistocene, ca. 10-12kya, but there is some evi…

Could it be that maybe some things were lost in translation? Maybe a “chariot” isn’t exactly the way we think of a chariot now. Maybe it was just a saddle?

You might want to look into the loose vs. tight translation theories. There are resulting consequences with sticking with either one.

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that is true, logistical support and processing have considerable costs. For aerial LiDAR collection via helicopter you're looking at about $20,000 per day of onsite collection including the helicopter team, insurance, and support. That gets you high density low altitude assets, not including the processing and storage costs. It's cheaper to fly with a fixed wing aircraft, but you will typically get lower density…

How much would the total weight be for the lidar equipment? I wonder if drones would be able to significantly reduce the price.

That depends a lot on the density of point coverage you need. Most LiDAR receptors weighed between 100-300lbs five years ago. They have become much smaller now, again due to self driving cars. However I am not sure that the hardware which is suitable for self driving applications would be "survey grade" appropriate for forest canopy and ground truth mapping. I'm also not sure what the power requirements of the newer LiDAR arrays are, but the weight for batteries is significant as it directly impacts your time "in the air" between ground support stations. In a helicopter you can power all the instruments off a DC power supply from the turbine.

Also typically you want an absolute vertical accuracy of +/- 5cm during flight in order to confidently map the surface features below foliated vegetation cover. This requires quite specialized differential GPS equipment as well as a radio/cellular connection to a commercial GPS ground station network. With the improvements in GLONASS/GALILEO constellations maybe the ground networks are not as critical anymore.

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stuff drives me so nuts. It also seems to be something that I've only ever noticed being done by religious people who follow done monotheistic believe. Does anyone know if any destruction of a culture and its artifacts had happened by someone not motivated by monotheistic delusions?

Do you consider the Chinese cultural revolution to be the product of monotheistic delusion? What about the more recent Chinese occupation of Tibet? What about the Nazi party? The Japanese occupiers of Korea and China during WWII? The British burning the Burmese royal library in the late 19th century? Or the current massacres of Muslims in Myanmar by Buddhists? The US Army in its genocide of indigenous North American…

"Do you consider the Chinese cultural revolution to be the product of monotheistic delusion?"

Yes, actually. The religion was Marxism (i.e., the most murderous religion in history), with Mao Zedong as its Prophet.

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why liberals are sometimes using the term genocide more broadly in a way conservatives don’t like. They reference things like “black genocide” and conservatives get mad because the actual slayings are too few to be considered “genocide”. Yet in terms of lost culture, putting a high enough percentage of individuals in prison, and confining enough of the others to ghettos, while driving them out of historical c…

> Of course the culture is born again in a different form, as Native American culture endures today Well, a culture is born again; culture just tends to happen if you put people together, it's in our blood. The question is whether it flourishes . I am from Europe so cannot say this for certain, but I get the impression that all over both American continents, Native Americans are still very much an ethnic minority who…

In Guatemala, they’re an ethnic majority whose rights are still being trampled over.

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#108
I appreciate the efforts and tech used to map the area and create the graphics but I've been to Guatemala and I suspect that these scientists didn't "discover" near as much as they claim here.

Mayans still live there, and they know every nook and cranny and tree and rock in those forests. If you ask them, and then shut up and listen, they'll tell you all about it and answer any questions you might have.

I did ask one about what was hidden in the forests below us that I met on the top of a pyramid in Belize. He pointed out the locations of about a dozen pyramids in Guatemala that we could see in the distance and told me about the roads and platforms and other structures hidden in the forests around us. I was astounded with what I learned from that man. He was a Forest Ranger who grew up there. His family had been living in the area forever.

I also asked him what they thought about scientists from foreign countries who come there and then announce to the world they've "discovered" something. Suffice it to say this piece would probably irk him because it pretends none of them knew anything about most of what scientists claim to have "discovered". He also opined a bit on how their culture has been depicted as being violent and bloodthirsty and offered a much more tempered version.

But, it is nice to know that Guatemala funded the project and have the data. That part is cool as can be and I look forward to hearing more about what they learn from it.

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#109
post #98
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wanted to say that this is a pretty bad comment.

How about you instead engage with that individual if you disagree? I don't find his comment unwelcoming to discussion. Now, whether he is correct or wrong is entirely separate, but from my point of view all I'm seeing is discussion being shutdown in the name of feelings and prevailing opinion.

"It should be noted - this definition as genocide as destruction of a culture (instead of physical murder of a people) also supports the idea of "white genocide":

A targeted effort by people with power to liquidate white peoples' group identity ("abolish whiteness") and to marginalize and obscure their traditional cultural touchstones ("don't teach books by dead white men" and related efforts to avoid teaching Shakespeare, the Bible, old white philosophers, etc), efforts to bring in many immigrants to make whites minorities in areas where they were previously a majority (and gleeful anticipation of this outcome), etc."

In his defense, it's difficult to want to waste time debating with this line of reasoning. There are some huge unfounded assumptions being made right here in a well thought out way. A nugget of possible truth, mixed with a lot of personal opinion. With that said, doesnt seem like it would lead to a productive conversation.

I'm not sure why the need to insert white males into the equation. That argument is based on you believing there is a secret organized attack against white men going on. I think thats open to interpretation depending on who you are. If anything, I, as a minority, see a balancing of power. Im also aware that whitw males still dominate the economical and political spectrum, so its even harder to agree with this logic. Is thus attack being perpetuated by other white males? To what gain? It seems to me that it appears as an attack on white males, when white males are no longer allowed to dominate culturally, economically, or in numbers in certain areas. They arent being excluded, others are being allowed to the table. That means more chairs need to be pulled up and you cant have the entire meal to yourself. I can't call that "cultural genocide". The role of white male in society remains much the same. This argument makes me think of the people who complain about AA hires, while ignoring the fact that the company is comprised of 85% white hires.

Re: Sprawling Mayan network discovered under Guatemala jungle

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say quite a lot. A private small-aircraft flight over any populated area (other than the biggest cities) reveals just how sparse most towns are. Travel almost any direction away from a main highway and in a minute or two you'll be looking at trees, trees, trees (or desert/mountains/fields). It helps give one an entirely new perspective when we're used to traveling along roads and seeing unyielding flows of ci…

Ahem, but the trees you then see are usually very civilized ones. Cultivated and harvested like an ordinary field. There are very few wild areas left. Usually only at far off areas or very steep terrain. see also: https://xkcd.com/1338/

Where do you live? I live in the Pacific Northwest and the forests around here are definitely not cultivated.
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