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Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

nytimes.com

101–110 of 345 posts

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#101

why don't the other exchanges just drop their USDT pairs ?

They're generally (but not all) exchanges that have been banned from having actual USD banking facilities and need USDT to provide something for their customers to trade against.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#102
If it becomes unprofitable to continue mining, and miners physically stop (selling gear etc...), will the change in Target just re-inflate the bubble again further down? Or have I misunderstood in difficulty/incentive structure?

From here it looks like the flood of market actors with an unsustainable price have created a crash, the flakes will get out of the game (pushing the price south), and then it might begin to get more profitable again?

Not sure what the outcome will be, but looks like a grass-burning point for those with skin in the game.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#103
Here a possible explanation on what Tether is doing and the economics behind why there is such an incentive behind pump and dump BTC. I think they are running a currency board pegging USDT to USD, and then using the BTC gained to push up BTC even further.

Part of the idea of a currency is a stable value, that means supply and demand need to be matched. With a fixed quantity such as all the common cryptos, when demand rises (either organic or from manipulation) there is no way to keep the value stable so the value of the currency will be constantly whipped around as demand is constantly changing.

This is the general problem with floating currencies. They are difficult to keep stable. Fiat tries to solve that by putting someone in change of money creation (in the Feds case until recently this was mostly in the form of manipulating the overnight rate banks charge each other).

Another way to do it is through pegging the price to something believed to have a stable value itself. Various precious metals have been used in the past, but commodity baskets are also thoght of (look at the chart of the CRB index vs gold and they are almost the same). Baskets of floating currencies have also been used but they arent nearly as stable and still rely on central bank decisions.

A currency peggged to an underlying doesnt mean you need to hold all the underlying. You just need to intervene in the market when your target price rises or falls too much. This could be what Bitfixex/Tether is doing. They aren't holding dollar reserves, but they are keeping the exchange rate constant with other traders by stepping in when necessary. That's why they don't have a conversion window.

If you had a crypto that was stable, pumping might not be nearly as effective since the currency you are pumping isn't going to increase in value, just more will be created to cover the demand.

So now we have a situation where BTC is easily manipulated up on artificial demand pressure, but that will also cause a rise in BTC/USDT sales as there are now just more trades. This pulls the value and price of USDT up, but to keep it at 1 USD, more USDT need to be printed and sold. And this is exactly what we see.

So they can sell either USDT for USD directly, or they can sell USDT/BTC. But now they have a bunch of BTC, so they can go sell that too pushing BTC even higher. The party stops when demand for USDT starts falling and the price needs to be defended.

I think if we ever get a good crypto currency it will be pegged to a commodity basket or gold or something. I'm working on the idea of how to control supply algorithmically and fairly though a combination of systems and bonds.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#104
post #84

The somewhat ironic part is that one of the core concepts of Bitcoin is that you can't counterfeit it. You can mathematically prove how many coins you own, if somebody sends you 3 BTC then once it's been validated on the blockchain you know that the money is now yours, they can't have lied, it can't bounce like a cheque Except this Bitfinex thing shows that while an amount of bitcoin can't be manipulated or counterfe…

I would guess that the traders who hold millions worth of tether have a good business relationship with Bitfinex and have more information than is publicly available. And that information seems to make Tether more trustworthy. A reason why they don’t want to make their bank statements public is that their bank fears being cut off from USD clearing once it gets known that they are handling Bitfinex funds. So there are actually valid reasons to be secretive and the unsatisfactory level of public information is a side effect of the whole regulatory circus the financial sector is burdened with.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#105
post #56
post #34

I find it weird that people assume this is intentional market manipulation. If they are in fact fraudulent (I think they are), being able to print money is a business model in itself; you don't need to intentionally manipulate the market (but could end up doing so accidentally)

Not true. In order to make sure there isn't a run on their fake currency, they need to ensure that the balance tips towards buying bitcoin rather than cashing out holdings. If the price goes too low, people will start trying to convert tethers to real money, triggering a crash.

This assumes that demand for a USD-correlated currency will grow with the price of Bitcoin, I'm not sure I buy that. Seems like when people are temporarily bearish about BTC is when they are most likely to move from BTC to USDT.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#106

Could be the best buying opportunity of the year. As someone involved in bitcoin since 2012, these cycles are pretty standard. It went from $1000 to around $250 iirc at one point and recovered. No reason it cant go from $20000 to $5000 and recover. It may take many years, but its not as if all crypto will die overnight. I see crypto being big in the more distant future, 15-20 years away when many of the problems are…

> No reason it cant go from $20000 to $5000 and recover. There are plenty of reasons why it could never recover. The previous cycles happened with a very different environment and context for bitcoin. This time Bitcoin has just hit mainstream. This cycle will very likely crush the mainstream's faith in Bitcoin to where it will never recover.

That’s true, but however, what if Bitcoin goes on like the Video Game Crash of 1983, the Second AI Winter, etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1983

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#107
post #56
post #34

I find it weird that people assume this is intentional market manipulation. If they are in fact fraudulent (I think they are), being able to print money is a business model in itself; you don't need to intentionally manipulate the market (but could end up doing so accidentally)

Not true. In order to make sure there isn't a run on their fake currency, they need to ensure that the balance tips towards buying bitcoin rather than cashing out holdings. If the price goes too low, people will start trying to convert tethers to real money, triggering a crash.

Or (assuming they're legitimate) they just buy back tether with their holdings, raising the price back to roughly $1. Which is the whole point of it supposedly being backed 1-1 in the first place.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#109
post #50

> In recent months, however, many investors have been raising alarm bells about Tether. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of new Tether were created; almost always when the prices of other virtual currencies were heading down. The Tether were used on the Bitfinex exchange to make big purchases of Bitcoin and other tokens, helping push their prices back up, according to multiple analyses of data from Bitfinex. Sur…

That is an interesting question. Digital "currency" is unregulated so the question is which law is violated. If, in purchasing a tether, there is some underlying contract that says the tether is backed by a dollar, then you might claim a violation of the contract. You may have to look at the fine print. Who was the counter party? What were the terms? Who is on the hook for it? Is it an entity that is outside the US?…

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, the SEC can probably decide to regulate it like a duck.

> It has been asserted that cryptocurrencies are not securities and that the offer and sale of cryptocurrencies are beyond the SEC’s jurisdiction. Whether that assertion proves correct with respect to any digital asset that is labeled as a cryptocurrency will depend on the characteristics and use of that particular asset. In any event, it is clear that, just as the SEC has a sharp focus on how U.S. dollar, euro and Japanese yen transactions affect our securities markets, we have the same interests and responsibilities with respect to cryptocurrencies.

https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-...

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#110
post #34

I find it weird that people assume this is intentional market manipulation. If they are in fact fraudulent (I think they are), being able to print money is a business model in itself; you don't need to intentionally manipulate the market (but could end up doing so accidentally)

People aren't assuming they are engaging in fraudulent behavior - there is evidence showing that they are. All they have to do to show they aren't is provide an audit.
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