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Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

theguardian.com

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Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#101

Post by lgessler »

irrational wrote: post #88
lgessler wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about pork or beef?

Nope. I've spent a ton of time around all these different animals and cattle and pigs (and especially chickens) are just stupid. Horses aren't stupid.

I am sure that your prolonged exposure to these farm animals has given you valuable insights into the nature of these animals. But I think you'd agree that informal observation has serious epistemological shortcomings. (I presume from what you wrote you did not engage in rigorous scientific observation of these animals.)

Personally, I've spent essentially no time around farm animals, but from what I understand about the scientific work in the area it seems likely that many farm animals have quite sophisticated minds. One review of experimental findings in pig intelligence[1] claims that "pigs possess complex ethological traits similar, but not identical, to dogs and chimpanzees".

[1]: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/8sx4s79c

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#102

Post by freeflight »

nerfhammer wrote: post #100
freeflight wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really sad how any kind of critique of capitalism, no matter how minor, instantly triggers, the very same and very predictable, knee-jerk responses along the lines of "Communism killed billions!". Like the wonders of capitalism don't kill anybody or like there are only those two choices between capitalism and some Soviet-style centrally planned communism. Which begs the question: Do these people really think we'…

Optimal allocation of finite time and resources on a society scale is a hard problem. Supposed alternatives to capitalism tend to ignore that. Bad economics of all stripes tends to assume some form betrayal theory as the only issue.

> Optimal allocation of finite time and resources on a society scale is a hard problem.

Agreed

> Supposed alternatives to capitalism tend to ignore that.

Disagreed, capitalism ignores the finite nature of resources, while treating some of them, which are actually infinite, as finite (time).

Also, I'd argue that nothing about the resource allocation, the way capitalism does it, is in any way optimal, at least in regards to our actual finite resources.

Most of it boils down to hoarding "money", which isn't a finite resource (can be printed at will) nor is it an actually useful resource on its own (can't do much with it except burn it if it's paper). It's supposed to be a tool, but at this point, it feels like the tool has been declared the goal: Just hoard more of the money and you've "won" the game like it's the ultimate solution to all problems.

This dynamic also influences the allocation of resources to most "profitable" of individual entities, it's a dynamic that rewards hostile competition over friendly cooperation.

Which is a dangerous reward system considering we are all stuck on the same piece of rock, drifting through infinity, sharing the very same finite resources. Wasting so much energy, and resources on how to "screw each other" over for those finite resources, and increasingly bigger "profits", seems quite wasteful and ultimately a very petty way to go about our existence.

I'm not saying I know the ultimate fool-proof solution, I just want to point out the flaws with what we've currently got going and imho these flaws are massive and will come bite us in the back-end sooner or later [0].

[0] https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#104

Post by hyperpallium »

sethbannon wrote: post #17

Listening to these remarkable recordings, I can't help but think that as time goes on, more and more of the artificial mental barriers we've built between us and non-human animals will fall. I hope with more research humanity stops seeing non-human animals as resources to be exploited but rather as sentient beings to be respected.

Some other animals can parrot human speech.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#105

Post by lgessler »

noobermin wrote: post #89
sethbannon wrote: post #17

Listening to these remarkable recordings, I can't help but think that as time goes on, more and more of the artificial mental barriers we've built between us and non-human animals will fall. I hope with more research humanity stops seeing non-human animals as resources to be exploited but rather as sentient beings to be respected.

I think we need to draw a line somewhere. Are plants not "resources to be exploited?" How about the bacteria in our gut? Ok, how about insects, say you don't even kill insects, what about if you accidentally step on a worm on a rainy day? Should we create "insect free zones" that keep bugs out (somehow) so that insects don't get needlessly killed on sidewalks or roads? What about rats? Rats and house mice carry harmf…

This is quite a strawman. While there are some people in the world who do what you describe (but for different reasons)[1], doing away with the binary (and highly suspect) barrier of "rationality" that that has been invoked at least as far back as Kant to elevate humans over all other animals is not tantamount to granting viruses and intestinal flora the right to vote and a universal basic income.

There are other bases—very intuitive ones among them, like capacity to suffer or to anticipate the future—by which you could decide in a principled manner how much ethical consideration a certain organism is due.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa_in_Jainism

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#107

Post by fjsolwmv »

eloff wrote: post #81
kleer001 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're a keystone species, have culture and language (probably older than any human one), they mourn their dead, and on and on...

Pigs are smart too. I don't know about on the same scale as elephants though. Elephants are also very social and long lived.

I know many humans who are not very social. Is "very social" a prerequisite for right to live?

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#108

Post by michaelmrose »

freeflight wrote: post #86
aspaceman wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was indeed referring to this logical fallacy. I don't see how treating animals well removes us from the ecosystem. We have already drastically changed the ecosystem of the Earth - might as well do some positive things for it.

But if you are so skeptical of the "appeal to nature" how would you decide what's positive for Earth/the ecosystem? Wouldn't you just come back to the conclusion of "What's good for nature must be natural or else it can't be part of nature?" Imho it's that logic which most "appeals to nature" are built upon.

By figuring out a list of priorities and balancing the benefits of different strategies in terms of those priorities?

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#109

Post by [deleted] »

meaniehusker wrote: post #64
ikeyany wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those barriers are certainly falling. The campaign to end the live boiling of lobsters and crabs [1] is underway due to our findings that crustaceans can feel pain. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42873644

everyone calm down...nature is ruthless. here spend some time on https://www.reddit.com/r/natureismetal/

[deleted]

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#110

Post by eloff »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #107
eloff wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are smart too. I don't know about on the same scale as elephants though. Elephants are also very social and long lived.

I know many humans who are not very social. Is "very social" a prerequisite for right to live?

No, it's a proxy for intelligence and higher forms of conscious awareness. There's no such thing as right to live for non-humans - if the world stops eating pigs, how many do you think would be alive? That applies in nature too where survival comes down to fitness and luck. But the higher the life form, the more human-like it is and the more humanely we should treat them. Ants get different dispensation from cows, and cows from dogs. Dolphins and elephants should get better treatment still, but this is not currently the case.
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