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Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

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Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#101

Post by enraged_camel »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #37
bitL wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for the companies considered "the best" in our industry with Glassdoor rating >4.5 at various stages of their lifecycle. This was happening everywhere, with singular pockets of progressive parts of company that were immune to that. At worse companies you can directly observe sexual or financial relations between managers and subordinates and resulting quick path to success as well, demoralizing the rest. Tec…

Glassdoor is fascinating for all the wrong reasons. I've now worked in charity/community, private sector, and government, for big, small and medium. During my last switch (from private back to government), i noticed what I'll call the "reverse glass door" effect while browsing their profiles. It was weak but it was there. That is to say, if i had to take all the employers, consultancies and corporations I've had to d…

One of the companies my sister worked at had a full time position dedicated to countering Glassdoor reviews. For every negative review posted, this employee had to post three positive ones. Suffice it to say the company had a 4.5+ rating on Glassdoor because of this.

Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#102

Post by jondubois »

dreamfactored wrote: post #92
indemnity wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve experienced both sides, this is 100% accurate. When I lucked out it was right time, right place, getting noticed, and I saw the opportunity for what it was. When I struggled I’d busted my ass for a few years with no recognition. In both instances I’d done the same thing with wildly different results.

This just says you didn't figure out the system but happened to 'luck out' one time. If you learn where the value is, you will know how to get recognition for any value you add (e.g. who values it and who's attention to bring it to that you are boosting it). In the case that the company is dysfunctional and doesn't promote value creators you will also get an earlier heads-up this way.

But you need quite a bit of luck just to start gaining exposure to these kinds of opportunities. That single 'luck out' event means everything; after the first major windfall or breakthrough, your experiences are distorted and they have little practical value for the average person. The bigger the windfall/breakthrough, the more true this is.

It's pretty easy to see where the 'value' is... Being exposed to people who are willing and able to give you access to that value is what's hard. It doesn't take much intelligence to find opportunities, especially if you've had some past success; then the opportunities find you.

Truly great opportunities are those that everyone else wants to be a part of; the ones that already-successful people are queueing up for... The ones that are impossible to get.

The kinds of opportunities that come out of nowhere and disrupt everything against all odds are so rare that you're better off assuming that they don't exist.

Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#103

Post by ChuckMcM »

hinkley wrote: post #98
ChuckMcM wrote: post #5

I completely endorse the suggestion that engineers should learn to understand this concept. If you learn one thing in your career, it should be this. One of the differences between working at BigCorp versus working at SmallCo or VentureCo is that in the smaller companies the relationship is much easier to trace out. Dan Warmenhoven (when he was CEO of Network Appliance) had a wonderful way to very clearly explaining…

I’ve had coworkers confide in me that their value isn’t being seen. Some were really good, some were constant problems to be managed. I have seen this scenario you observed, and my standing advice is take a week off. If people are glad you came back then you are correct and you need a raise or more power or both. If they just ask you about your trip then your perception of your value is out of whack.

I like that. It does require careful observation though if you're the manager.

Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#105

Post by balls187 »

throwawayjava wrote: post #7

> This is why I struggle with scenarios where people discuss pay and work without considering value. Counter-point: firms exist. If I'm the one figuring out how to create value, why the hell are the C suite, middle managers, and investors getting 99% of the profits? So no, in the context of a large firm, it's definitely NOT an engineer's job to figure out how their skills align with market demand. And that's the whol…

> As an engineer, you might actually be better off ignoring engineering-value alignment because you might be better off simply executing well within a well-oiled machine.

This is generally the approach for maximizing cash compensation, in lieu of being a highly sought after programmer by Google et al. That and jumping from jobs every 2 years for 20-40% pay increase.

By Value, I think OP is talking about value in the context of an engineers role.

For an engineering, you can create linear value with your amazing code, but as you contribute more broadly (architecture design, mentoring, code-reviews, etc), you multiply the value you provide.

> If I'm the one figuring out how to create value, why the hell are the C suite, middle managers, and investors getting 99% of the profits?

That sentiment reminds me of this scene from The Wire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e10ZPVafUA (NSFW - Language)

Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#106

Post by burntsushi »

Nokinside wrote: post #19
bitL wrote: post #9

Real-world: - you increase value; your bosses team up with each other and claim the credit; you might even get booed for some minor deficiencies whereas they will be boasting about their achievements - you are generous and do non-AGPL based open-source; parasites are waiting in the open, incorporate your code to their commercial offering, never paying you anything; your bonus will be rude complaints about bugs in you…

> you are generous and do non-AGPL based open-source ; parasites are waiting in the open This is not you being generous or them being parasite. BSD type license is not "hint hint GPL type honor code". You need to communicate what you want from others trough the license. If you use non-AGPL or non GPL open license that's a sign that others can exploit your work for commercial purposes without contributing back money o…

> If you use BSD type license and others exploit it like it was intended to, don't complain.

Uh. No. This is only valid if you interpret laws and ethics as one in the same. Maybe you do. That's fine. But not everyone does.

Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#107

Post by phunehehe0 »

the8472 wrote: post #87
Nokinside wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are generous and do non-AGPL based open-source ; parasites are waiting in the open This is not you being generous or them being parasite. BSD type license is not "hint hint GPL type honor code". You need to communicate what you want from others trough the license. If you use non-AGPL or non GPL open license that's a sign that others can exploit your work for commercial purposes without contributing back money o…

Well, between and around AGPL and BSD there's a lot of configuration-space left unexplored. How about an L-AGPL that so that the source of a component must be published without extending to the whole work? Or maybe one that requires any changes made (patches) must be made available to the public under CC0, even if you only use it internally? It's a pity that modified licenses are basically treated like plague spots,…

> How about an L-AGPL that so that the source of a component must be published without extending to the whole work?

Middle grounds exist though. The MPL is one that I like. It requires copyleft at the file level. However AFAIK it doesn't have the A in AGPL, i.e. it's pretty much like the BSD license if the software is a server application.

It certainly would be nice to have some more options.

Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#108

Post by meddlepal »

pqh wrote: post #84
k__ wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. Founding a company is the only way to shape your own success.

Though you're more likely to shape your own failure. Let's be real. That's not to say don't try, but be aware of the full picture.

There are many definitions of success. A self sustaining business that doesn't make massive profits or have a vice grip on a market is failure in VC's eyes but by most folks standards would be a massive success.

Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#109

Post by saas_co_de »

bitL wrote: post #9

Real-world: - you increase value; your bosses team up with each other and claim the credit; you might even get booed for some minor deficiencies whereas they will be boasting about their achievements - you are generous and do non-AGPL based open-source; parasites are waiting in the open, incorporate your code to their commercial offering, never paying you anything; your bonus will be rude complaints about bugs in you…

Creating value is fundamental to the job but no one is going to give you money whether you create value or not.

You have to both create value and proactively take the cut of the profit you deserve.

Giving away code is no big deal. Code is a rapidly depreciating asset and everything you create you will create something better tomorrow.

You give people code to demonstrate what they have the opportunity to buy if they want to make money. If they are stupid they don't pay and you find smarter people who want to make money.

Re: Fellow Engineers: This is where your money comes from

#110

Post by WalterBright »

danieltillett wrote: post #80
WalterBright wrote: post #8

> If you want to increase your compensation over time, continue to put yourself in a position where you can deliver the most value. Implied in the article but not stated: it's not about how hard you work. Working hard has nothing to do with it. Nobody cares how hard you work. It's about what value you provide to the company. Work smart, work effectively, not hard.

I wish that was true, but in some organisations working hard (or at least appearing to work hard) seems to be all that matters. The further you are from the owner of the business the more likely you are to be rewarded for non-productive proxies.

This tends to be true, and is the core reason why, in free markets, companies do not grow indefinitely, but tend to become encrustified and fail.
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