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Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

nytimes.com

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Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#101

Post by booleandilemma »

Avshalom wrote: post #67
davidw wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a seller's market Is it as much as we think? It seems that big companies in Silicon Valley had no qualms about talking among one another about not "poaching" developers (what a lame term poaching is). I'm not terribly keen on the idea of unions either (or immigration restrictions for that matter), but we should damn well be sure that companies are not colluding.

If it was a seller's market we also wouldn't have threads about month long interviewing processes.

I’ve been asked by more than one recruiter to take a pre-test online before the company even interviewed me.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#102

Post by mixmastamyk »

SEJeff wrote: post #63
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in a seller's market unions will still provide you with leverage you couldn't get otherwise. Unions aren't only so the dispossessed can bargain for more, they're so any group can bargain for more. The one example I always give is of my mom starting out working in the 70's. Her employer was not unionized but had several unionized competitors in the city. Because her employer didn't want to bother with union negot…

I find there are more than enough people that want me (as a software engineer with 10+ years of low level linux / unix experience) and wish me to be very happy. If I ever was forced to join a union, I'd quit on the spot and go find somewhere else to work. I worked for Comair (small airline owned by Delta) during a stewardess strike, which ultimately caused the company to sell planes and eventually go out of business.…

As there are good and bad companies, there are good and bad unions.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#103

Post by dtornabene »

ng12 wrote: post #5
chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

Its amazing that none of the replies (so far) have pointed out something in the very article that spawned this thread, the status of women and minorities. Literally in the title its noted that the publisher is being put on leave, if you read the article it goes on to note that was because of sexual harrassment and his attitude toward gay men. These are bread and butter union issues.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#104

Post by chimeracoder »

Karunamon wrote: post #87
sigstoat wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > I will quit from any employer that forces all programmers to negotiate as a unit > You realise that unions are something imposed on employers, right? They don't like them. and a common first thing for the union to do is to force the employer to only hire union workers.

I thought union shops were illegal in the USA per the NLRA. As I understand it, they can force you to pay a portion of dues (only stuff related directly to bargaining with your specific employer), but that's about it.

> I thought union shops were illegal in the USA. As I understand it, they can force you to pay dues, but that's about it.

No, closed shops are illegal, but union shops aren't. An employer can no longer agree only to hire people who are already members of a union (that's a closed shop, which used to be legal), but they can force you to join a union after you are hired. If that's the case, if the union terminates your membership, the employer is forced to terminate your employment as well.

(Ironically, the union can force you to pay dues even if you're not a member, but that's a separate matter.)

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#105

Post by paxy »

p_monk wrote: post #72

For those people suggesting programmers shouldn't unionize, read the op-ed in Financial Times written by Sequoia's Michael Moritz this week to see why programmers should unionize ASAP: https://www.ft.com/content/42daca9e-facc-11e7-9bfc-052cbba03... In this article, he suggests Silicon Valley engineers should be worked to the bone like their Chinese counterparts. Some of the things he suggests in the articles: 1) End…

So programmers across the country should unionize because one guy has an opinion?

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#106

Post by Apocryphon »

dtornabene wrote: post #103
ng12 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

Its amazing that none of the replies (so far) have pointed out something in the very article that spawned this thread, the status of women and minorities. Literally in the title its noted that the publisher is being put on leave, if you read the article it goes on to note that was because of sexual harrassment and his attitude toward gay men. These are bread and butter union issues.

Indeed, one of the reasons for why tech unionization became a discussed topic was the Susan Fowler revelations about Uber.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#107

Post by nawitus »

throwwwwaway9 wrote: post #68
ng12 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

>>Why do we need a union in a seller's market? Take a look at big tech earnings http://www.businessinsider.com/tech-companies-revenue-employ... . It may look like you're getting a lot, but there's a lot of room left for even greater salaries and (still) insane profits. Maybe even double them.

Unions don't really increase salaries at countries where unions are popular with software engineers (e.g. Finland).

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#108

Post by JoeAltmaier »

ng12 wrote: post #5
chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

Used to be true; not this year. Harder to find gigs, hiring takes longer. Used to turn down contracts regularly; haven't for a while now.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#109

Post by p_monk »

paxy wrote: post #105
p_monk wrote: post #72

For those people suggesting programmers shouldn't unionize, read the op-ed in Financial Times written by Sequoia's Michael Moritz this week to see why programmers should unionize ASAP: https://www.ft.com/content/42daca9e-facc-11e7-9bfc-052cbba03... In this article, he suggests Silicon Valley engineers should be worked to the bone like their Chinese counterparts. Some of the things he suggests in the articles: 1) End…

So programmers across the country should unionize because one guy has an opinion?

"Some guy"

Moritz is one of the most esteemed partners at the most prestigious VC firm in the world. He's a multi-billionaire with immense power. He's not "some guy."

"has an opinion"

He wrote an op-ed in the most widely read international business journal. This isn't an opinion, it's a rallying cry.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#110

Post by Apocryphon »

xienze wrote: post #40
untog wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting that programmers (as a whole) seem resistant to it. It's often described as being unnecessary, but when you go one or two posts down HN you find people decrying long hours, open plan offices, weekend callouts, etc. etc. I suspect it's just that when the going is good, people don't really think they need a union. If the prophecies come true and AI starts writing code for us, you can bet people will s…

I think the realistic among us realize that creating a software developer’s union would lead to dramatically increased offshoring. Actors, plumbers, etc.? Can’t offshore those, so the dynamic between workers and management is a little different. Software development, you can offshore the hell out of that. Shoot, look at automobile workers, granted there’s still a sizable amount in this country but nothing like it use…

Can you truly offshore the hell out of software developers? That was the big fear of the late '90s and '00s, but despite the rise of software salaries (and the knock on effects on the business expenses in Silicon Valley), that didn't seem to come to pass.
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