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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#101

Post by toomanybeersies »

korethr wrote: post #90
toomanybeersies wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be worse in newer cars. Most cars I've driven have been older models, pre-2000, every time I have to drive a new car, I'm always surprised at how bad the visibility is, they all have tiny rear windows and massive A pillars. I used to own an old Datsun truck from the 1980s and the A-pillar blindspot was tiny because it had small, vertical A-pillars. A-pillars are a lot thicker and a lot more angled in newe…

It sounds like what happens in every other instance of engineering: trade-offs. Emphasise performance in one metric -- preventing roof collapse and preserving the integrity of the passenger compartment in this case -- and it can come at the cost of other metrics (here, visibility). I don't think vehicle engineers are deliberately making cars hard to see out of, but I do think it's possible that those setting the poli…

The cynic in me says that it's a liability thing.

Manufacturers are more likely to be liable if you roll your car and the roof caves in, killing you.

Manufacturers are less likely to be found liable if you couldn't see through your A-pillar and hit a cyclist, as apparently proven by the article.

It's very hard to point the finger at the driver for their roof caving in, there's nothing the driver can do to stop that from happening. But there's plenty a driver could do to avoid trouble from blindspots.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#102

Post by bagels »

Thinking back to all of the times I've been hit or almost hit on a bicycle, visibility hasn't been a problem.

I think by far, the most common was the 'right hook', where the driver passes on the left, and makes a right turn in to a driveway.

After that were various intentional murder attempts, such as the taxi driver that honked at me, drove around me, and then tried to brake check me.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#103

Post by marcus_holmes »

ajmurmann wrote: post #65
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

For cyclists, roundabouts aren't that much better unless we're given separate lanes.

Motorists still tend to blow through roundabouts at speed if they can't see anything coming. From personal experience you can easily navigate a roundabout at 35+ mph.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#104

Post by djsumdog »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #48
djsumdog wrote: post #33

I know most comments indicate that even without the maths, the rolling geography would seem to block the view, and that the best solution would be a 4-way stop, a roundabout or the split road suggestion in the article. But going back to the a-pillar, Volvo did have a concept design with a see through a-pillar. I'm not sure why it never made it to market. I'm guessing it didn't pass their safety requirements? http://w…

A 4 way stop is unnecessary, simply requiring one direction to stop would work fine. In New Zealand, with rural grid roads, they usually have 2 way stops (or give-way/yields) which will alternate, so you get priority at one intersection, then stop/give way at the next, and so on.

The article mentions a yield sign, right? I don't think that's enough. There needs to at least be a stop sign. Given the severity of the accidents, I don't think it's unreasonable to just go all out, especially if it really is a rural road with minimal traffic.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#105

Post by adrianN »

tc313 wrote: post #100
ajmurmann wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe the residential area would either 1. Have no signs resulting in the car to the right getting the right of way 2. One road gets a right of way sign and the other road had to yield. I strongly prefer those setups because they are much more fuel efficient. However, I don't think any of that would work in the UD because it would require real driving classes and tests. I had to drive around for close to 20 hours…

Most middle- and upper-class Americans take a driver’s education course (like what you’ve described) prior to receiving their driver’s license. In 10 years it won’t even be necessary because nobody’s going to be driving themselves anyway.

A lot of the cars on the road right now are ten years old or older. Even if self driving cars became a thing that anybody can afford right now it would take longer than ten years before nobody had to drive themselves.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#106

Post by larkeith »

ajmurmann wrote: post #65
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

Having lived near a very similar intersection, also with frequent accidents (it has a 2-way stop with heavy 50-70 mph cross-traffic and frequent left turns, depending on the time of day), cost may be a significant portion of the reason; a neighborhood campaign to replace the 2-way stop with a traffic light fell through due to a >$1 million price tag for adding a light to a countryside road, and it's doubtful a roundabout would cost less.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#107

Post by horsecaptin »

DavidSJ wrote: post #34
ams6110 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter. If you're cycling and you see a moving car, assume the driver doesn't see you. Never cross the path of a moving car even if you have the right of way or a green light etc. When you approach a junction, your head needs to be on a swivel constantly looking left and right and you need to be prepared to stop even if you have the right of way. This pretty much goes for motorcyclists as well. I'm not blamin…

The rule I generally follow as a pedestrian is that the object with greater linear momentum has the right of way.

Not sure why you're being downvoted for this. As a pedestrian who used to commute by bicycle, this is the number one rule.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#108

Post by njarboe »

larkeith wrote: post #106
ajmurmann wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

Having lived near a very similar intersection, also with frequent accidents (it has a 2-way stop with heavy 50-70 mph cross-traffic and frequent left turns, depending on the time of day), cost may be a significant portion of the reason; a neighborhood campaign to replace the 2-way stop with a traffic light fell through due to a >$1 million price tag for adding a light to a countryside road, and it's doubtful a rounda…

A roundabout might cost less. I wonder how much of that signal price was getting grid electricity to the site.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#109

Post by dkeeton »

matte_black wrote: post #4

Wow, after all these years I finally learned the name of this phenomenon, constant bearing decreasing range. I recall a scene in the movie Sin City where two cars crash and the camera was moving in CBDR to the perpendicular car as it zoomed into the impact site. I thought it was a cool shot. Also I’ve almost hit pedestrians several times when they were obscured by my A pillar. Sometimes I wonder if I would have actua…

Same here, as a tall-ish person who likes to sit fairly straight up in the driver's seat, the rear-view mirror obscures my vision much more than the a-pillar.

I've learned my lesson. Now I do a little lean to look around the mirror at intersections.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#110

Post by pfarnsworth »

I have a Honda Fit and I find the exact same problem when I’m driving in areas with a lot of pedestrians, especially San Francisco. The pillar is especially wide in the Fit and I’ve almost hit several pedestrians because their walking speed exactly coincides with the speed of my car and they get blocked by the exact same pillar so I never see them.

It has happened about 6 times so now whenever I drive in areas with pedestrians I move my head right in the middle of the car so that my view is no longer obstructed.

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