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A link between polygamy and war

economist.com

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Re: A link between polygamy and war

#101

Post by BearGoesChirp »

whack wrote: post #59

I'm opposed to polygamy for the obvious humanitarian concerns, and other issues raised in the article. But at the same time, I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy. IQ and many personality traits have been shown to be correlated significantly with genes (many of these studies are based on adopted children, for whom genes and upbringing are decoupled). In monogamous societies like in Am…

What about a society that is polygamous without contract? Many of the issues of polygamy seem to happen not because of the actual marriage contracts, but because of the relationships formed. Even if you remove the contracts, if we allow those relationships, don't we still have an issue?

Does a society where polygamous relationships are allowed suffer some of the same core problems that a society which allows polygamy suffers?

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#102

Post by BearGoesChirp »

zzzzzzzza wrote: post #94
betterunix2 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy." I think you might be overlooking the fact that women can and do have sex with other men than their husbands.

It's a complicated issue certainly, however as far as I'm aware cuckoldry (where children are product of adultery) is relatively rare, under 2%, don't have a source offhand but that's the hearsay as it were.

I think the implications were about sex before marriage, not just actual cases of having another persons child.

Rates of births out of wedlock has been steadily increasing and is nearing 50% (may already be passed it).

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#103

Post by BearGoesChirp »

lkrubner wrote: post #42

This suggests that political stability depends on young men being able to pursue their romantic dreams. This would apply in any country, not just African countries. In nations in the West, an important limiting factor is the ability to get one's own apartment. That is, the ratio of average male wage to average rent. In the USA, the happiest year for this ratio was 1958, when people were spending 22% of their income o…

I think you confused a few points. You mention both men getting apartments so they can form families with their already existing relationships and men who don't have relationships turning to online resources to try to understand how to have them. These seem distinct phenomena. Especially since in many other cultures newly wed couples would live with one set of parents in a multi-generational household. This means while it would go contrary to current social expectations and there would be some stress from doing such, not having an independent home for a relationship should be considered separate from not having a relationship. The latter is what mimics polygamous societies, and if the theory about the disability they cause those societies is true, should give us cause for concern in our own.

That there is a correlation between the availability of housing and effects you mention might be driven by a third hidden factor.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#104

Post by kaitai »

user5994461 wrote: post #86
geodel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it ironic? Isn't it simple default that there are fewer successful people in most commonly used metrics like financially, socially, culturally etc? So if a women is successful they will have less mates to choose from.

No, it's not a default. The default is that successful women have a bigger pool to choose from and they really do. What happen in practice is that they refuse to consider anyone who is not more than themselves, effectively ignoring the vast majority of the pool. The more successful and pretty, the bigger the pool, which they balance by being even more selective.

"[T]hey refuse to consider.." We all bring our own experiences, but as one of those highly educated women, many men refuse to consider me. A lot of guys do still want someone who doesn't match them economically or intellectually.

Of course this is not universal. But have you ever had a guy (gal) just walk away from you in a club after hearing what you do for a living? Math. The death knell for a previously reasonable flirtation.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#105

Post by BearGoesChirp »

underqwalified wrote: post #18

HN is just not equipped to discuss this sort of thing.

From past experience I've found that taking an economic/scientific approach to certain things, especially human relationships, is considered a profane act in certain parts of modern day society. Many of my past attempts to discuss the economics of relationships results in accusations of sociopathy for attempting to understand relationships under a transactional framework. I've yet to figure out the cause of such opposition.

That HN doesn't result in this reaction (at least not nearly as strongly as other places) means it is one of the places most equipped to discuss it.

But it is possible for the most equipped place to discuss something to still be woefully inadequately equipped to discuss it. The richest person in a room can still be poor.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#106

Post by watwut »

geodel wrote: post #69
belorn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we pick that as the default, then is it then not ironic that successful men (using financial metrics) have a larger option pool of mates? I personally don't find either ironic, but rather a very clear difference between the genders in the correlation between financial success and dating. The really interesting part is the causes of this difference, and whom is driving it.

I think larger option pool is not equal to larger option pool to 'marry up'. What I have seen is that successful males often execute option of selecting prettier females instead of successful ones. This thing is far more common in poorer non-western societies but I imagine western societies wouldn't be totally immune to this.

It is trophy wife thing. You marry to signal to other guys that you are above them sexually, but you are not actually looking to do things together with wife, spend time with her or anything like that.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#107

Post by user5994461 »

kaitai wrote: post #104
user5994461 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not a default. The default is that successful women have a bigger pool to choose from and they really do. What happen in practice is that they refuse to consider anyone who is not more than themselves, effectively ignoring the vast majority of the pool. The more successful and pretty, the bigger the pool, which they balance by being even more selective.

"[T]hey refuse to consider.." We all bring our own experiences, but as one of those highly educated women, many men refuse to consider me. A lot of guys do still want someone who doesn't match them economically or intellectually. Of course this is not universal. But have you ever had a guy (gal) just walk away from you in a club after hearing what you do for a living? Math. The death knell for a previously reasonable…

I stopped disclosing what I do for a living a long long time ago.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#108

Post by nitwit005 »

debacle wrote: post #57
sudhirj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s also an expectation that women will marry ‘up’, even in first world countries, I think. It’s very ironic that women who develop themselves have a smaller option pool of mates.

It's not really an expectation. There have been studies on this, and women do tend to prefer mates at or above their social status (whether that means educationally, professionally, economically, etc). It makes finding a spouse late in life for successful women incredibly difficult.

Expectations aren't about what you prefer, it's about what other people want you to do. There are definitely women encouraging their daughters to pick someone wealthier.

Re: A link between polygamy and war

#109

Post by nitwit005 »

whack wrote: post #59

I'm opposed to polygamy for the obvious humanitarian concerns, and other issues raised in the article. But at the same time, I'm curious about the long-term genetic impact of monogamy vs polygamy. IQ and many personality traits have been shown to be correlated significantly with genes (many of these studies are based on adopted children, for whom genes and upbringing are decoupled). In monogamous societies like in Am…

You don't need polygamy to produce an enormous number of offspring. You just have to chose to produce as many children as possible, across more than one generation: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/21/nyregion/21yitta.html
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