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Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

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Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#101

Post by nyolfen »

Animats wrote: post #15
jackyinger wrote: post #4

The same thing is happening in the US. The difference is that the authorities here use much more subtle methods so it doesn’t appear pervasive. It is known that use and abuse of stingrays is rife in our cities and gag orders allow even wider silent collection of data we give up willingly to tech companies because we can’t see what’s done with it.

In the US, law enforcement is split among too many organizations to implement a Big Brother system competently. Every little police department has their own system, and private sector systems aren't integrated with government systems. Look at the mess in DC - their camera system was taken over by a botnet. Not even to use the camera data, just to mooch network resources. There's an business opportunity here. There's…

> In the US, law enforcement is split among too many organizations to implement a Big Brother system competently. Every little police department has their own system, and private sector systems aren't integrated with government systems.

look up so-called 'fusion centers'

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#102

Post by floren »

adventured wrote: post #91
floatboth wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't New Zealand the country with the highest level of liberty? Also, yeah, no reeducation camps, but cops getting away with murder all the time…

> Also, yeah, no reeducation camps, but cops getting away with murder all the time You mean like how the Chinese State has executed 50,000 to 60,000 people since 2000? Have you read about how those crimes are applied to the people being executed? Typically there is an unsolved batch of crimes, they tag random people with them at will, then execute the supposed criminals by the hundreds to wipe away all the unsolved c…

> Typically there is an unsolved batch of crimes, they tag random people with them at will, then execute the supposed criminals by the hundreds to wipe away all the unsolved crimes.

Sometimes it's just that a high-ranking Party official needs a new liver...

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#103

Post by kurtisc »

fellellor wrote: post #6
jimmies wrote: post #5

I think one of the few really, really good things we have left in the US is that I _feel_ that I am trusted to do the right thing. I was in Singapore, a rich, orderly state for an internship a couple of years ago. There were cameras everywhere: Cameras on the sidewalks, cameras on the staircases, cameras in residential apartments, cameras in the subway, cameras at the workplace. There were very few places I feel not…

Isn't it the same in UK? I read somewhere there 1 cctv camera for every 10 citizens in that country.

Usually pointing at private land or with signs if they can move. There's also number plate recognition on major roads and services. I don't really get the fuss, it's more private than having a security guard watch you. And they work at preventing crime and tracking people who commit them.

I'm surprised people from other countries aren't more turned off by our speeding cameras. I don't like them.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#104

Post by RobertoG »

avmich wrote: post #99
jhedwards wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a non-Chinese who lived in China and I would talk about this subject with a retired businessman from Beijing who lived next door to me in Sunnyvale. His view was basically what you described: there are a ton of people in China and the vast majority of them were only recently raised out of abject poverty, and on top of that the cultural revolution had a dramatic impact on public education. So the feeling is that…

> the feeling is that there is a massive potential for chaos and that the iron grip of the government prevents that chaos from emerging This is similar to how Russian government presents the situation in Russia, and lots of people getting the information from government channels tend to agree with that. The difference is that China is moving ahead economically much faster than Russia today. As soon as advancement sto…

>"[..] the situation in Russia, and lots of people getting the information from government channels [..]"

It's not only people getting the information from government.

I have spoken to Russians living in the European Union, that don't support the current Russian government, and there is an agreement that the current situation is better that the 90's , that they frequently describe like the "wild west".

This is, I think, one of the reasons of the popularity of Putin in Russia.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#105

Post by nate_meurer »

hux_ wrote: post #52
jimmies wrote: post #5

I think one of the few really, really good things we have left in the US is that I _feel_ that I am trusted to do the right thing. I was in Singapore, a rich, orderly state for an internship a couple of years ago. There were cameras everywhere: Cameras on the sidewalks, cameras on the staircases, cameras in residential apartments, cameras in the subway, cameras at the workplace. There were very few places I feel not…

American beliefs about their freedom are just that - BELIEFS. The underlying implication ALWAYS is the Chinese and Singaporeans or whoever can't think for themselves about what is good for their societies and therefore need American moral guidance and leadership. This is the same tactic the British/French/Spanish etc used to justify colonization. They needed a reason cause by the 18th century, most of the local popul…

Oh really, just beliefs?

Is it merely my "belief" that I can publicly criticize our government in whatever way I want (short of threats) without fear of government reprisal?

Is it merely my belief that no transaction with any bureaucracy, government or otherwise, has ever required me to pay a bribe, and that being asked for one would be offensive and probably just inconceivable to any American?

Your defense of authoritarian regimes is a simple-minded rehash of "at least the trains ran on time". There's nothing clever or new about it; for all of history depots have used safety and convenience to justify stripping people of basic human rights.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#106

Post by tomc1985 »

Jyaif wrote: post #48
sgt101 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider Anne Frank. Her family were identified as Jews by a census by the somewhat benevolent Dutch state in the 1930's. The disclosure of these records cost Anne her life, and cost the lives of tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of others. Consider homosexuality, disclosures of sexual preference in 1950's England or in modern Saudi Arabia were, and are, fatal. Cf. Alan Turing! Privacy breeches can, and do, kill…

Anne Frank was killed by people. No one in the history of mankind has ever been killed by a privacy breach. Preventing ideologies that lead to killing people is what needs to be worked on, not forcing people to live closeted lives.

People who got the idea to kill her after breaching her privacy... this is like basic cause-and-effect.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#107

Post by oh_sigh »

jimmies wrote: post #5

I think one of the few really, really good things we have left in the US is that I _feel_ that I am trusted to do the right thing. I was in Singapore, a rich, orderly state for an internship a couple of years ago. There were cameras everywhere: Cameras on the sidewalks, cameras on the staircases, cameras in residential apartments, cameras in the subway, cameras at the workplace. There were very few places I feel not…

Think of it this way: The cameras are there to prevent people who aren't doing the right thing from hurting you or other innocents.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#108

Post by vidoc »

RobertoG wrote: post #104
avmich wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the feeling is that there is a massive potential for chaos and that the iron grip of the government prevents that chaos from emerging This is similar to how Russian government presents the situation in Russia, and lots of people getting the information from government channels tend to agree with that. The difference is that China is moving ahead economically much faster than Russia today. As soon as advancement sto…

>"[..] the situation in Russia, and lots of people getting the information from government channels [..]" It's not only people getting the information from government. I have spoken to Russians living in the European Union, that don't support the current Russian government, and there is an agreement that the current situation is better that the 90's , that they frequently describe like the "wild west". This is, I thi…

>>"[..] the situation in Russia, and lots of people getting the information from government channels [..]" > It's not only people getting the information from government.

Getting the majority of information through government media is widely known as not necessary to having the populace think exactly how the government wants it to. In fact, an independent/private media can be more pro government than a government stated media, extremely well known paradox.

Look no further than the united states and make a very simple exercice: pick a random media of just any political stance, pick a random foreign policy or national security topic and count the number of times you dont see gospel of the state department.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#109

Post by mac01021 »

adventured wrote: post #91
floatboth wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't New Zealand the country with the highest level of liberty? Also, yeah, no reeducation camps, but cops getting away with murder all the time…

> Also, yeah, no reeducation camps, but cops getting away with murder all the time You mean like how the Chinese State has executed 50,000 to 60,000 people since 2000? Have you read about how those crimes are applied to the people being executed? Typically there is an unsolved batch of crimes, they tag random people with them at will, then execute the supposed criminals by the hundreds to wipe away all the unsolved c…

> Typically there is an unsolved batch of crimes, they tag random people with them at will, then execute the supposed criminals by the hundreds to wipe away all the unsolved crimes. It wasn't more than a dozen years ago that China was still executing people as a public sport in stadiums, where you could go and watch the state executions.

Citation? This seems like a phenomenon that I should know more about.

Re: Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life

#110

Post by dsfyu404ed »

gumby wrote: post #98
jruthers wrote: post #86

I'd really like to read more Chinese-from-China views on this kind of article. Although the content of the article scares me personally, it would be interesting to have more of a discourse about more plausible reasons why this kind of surveillance is "good" from a genuine different perspective. One mistake the Chinese govt makes is never explaining themselves in a plausible way so it always comes across as Orwellian.…

> I'd really like to read more Chinese-from-China views on this kind of article. Note that this level of surveillance is not pervasive throughout the rest of China; this is about a region populated by non-Han Chinese (Uyghurs, a who are Muslim and speak a Turkic language); most han residents are colonists. The Chinese language is the official one but is not spoken at home by most people there. The central government…

>Hell, I remember dystopian movies always had bizarre, pointless "security" announcements as a way of showing how creepy the future had become

"Hello, this is MBTA Police Cheif Kenneth Green reminding you if you see something, say something"

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