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A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

staltz.com

101–110 of 220 posts

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#101
post #10

The reason the Web needs rescuing is because it's not a particularly well-designed system that has been patched over and over again for the last quarter century. And now it has been degraded to a delivery layer for JavaScript apps, a poor RPC protocol and an overly complex UI rendering toolkit. It should have had protocol-level technologies for preserving historic data, for search, for offline use, for authoring and…

> The reason the Web needs rescuing is because it's not a particularly well-designed system...

The problem is that you cannot predict the future. Standards have to bend and twist to move with the times. The Internet standards were decent for the time they were created. And UI fads will dictate things whether that's logical or not. Humans love fads.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#102
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See discussion in this thread about the "204 No Content" response code. Not all successful HTTP requests trigger a page load. And that's without having to change anything about current HTTP/HTML—except maybe giving hyperlinks and/or forms access to more HTTP methods, though for god's sake we ought to already have that in HTML and if you'd told me in 2007 that in 2017 we still wouldn't be able to PUT or DELETE on a we…

You'd have way no indicate that your upvote succeeded with a 204 status code. Going back to my original point, and what you're arguing for me here, is that do this properly you'd have to imagine and implement every possible use case. In 1993, nobody envisioned web pages like Reddit. And yes, without JavaScript the web would be much faster and much safer but also much less interesting and powerful. It's hard to imagin…

We had working voting systems before AJAX (source: I have a high-but-now-considered-lowish Slashdot ID) so we can do it. Besides, visited link state seems like it'd resolve the problem, and it's been in HTML approximately forever.

I still don't see the problem. The rest of what's possible can go on the current web, which would hopefully optimize (even more) for delivering apps if that happened. I want a content reader that won't, in practice, often run malicious code when I point it at the wrong document. That means it must not be able to run scripts, or at least not scripts that can communicate with the outside world in any way, at which point you may as well save the disk, memory, and complexity by leaving scripting out. There's no reason the thing I browse Craigslist, Wikipedia, IMDB, and Facebook and Twitter for that matter on must also be able to run ports of Wolfenstein or Excel clones or whatever. Or chat clients. The loss of trust and predictability in ordinary web browsing that scripting and complex layout systems bring aren't worth it. Put them somewhere else (including right where they are now—that'd be fine. Move the web to something more suited to it and leave the apps on the current "web")

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#103
post #87

There's a lot of white on this map: [World Population Density]( http://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/ ) — the hard part is gonna be getting data between Europe and New Zealand without Big Wire. I love how Staltz's solution to this goes hand-in-hand with re-personalising our interactions. In short: 1. The Next Billion haven't yet become used to the idea that useful tech services must be global, and provided for you…

Building a connection across a continent just by hopping from mesh node to mesh node is like trying to drive across a country by just using dirt paths. It is clearly not impossible, but there is a reason that most people choose to use highways for long distances. It is similar with a several-hundred-hop long path through a mesh network vs a single hop over a suboceanic fiber connection. In particular, step 5 is untru…

> step 5 is untrue over large distances such as across the Sahara

Yep. Focusing on local, social connections makes this less relevant.

> Step 6 is true, but does not necessarily lead to mass adoption.

Yeah, there's more scope for growth in places that don't already have abundant internet, where the pull is practical. But there are also a growing number of enthusiasts for whom the pull is principle, and they can help make mesh networking viable for poor people in rich cities.

> Step 7 is feasible, but costs a LOT of money at scale.

Step 7 is what you and I are doing right now :) — using the existing internet. This point was supposed to mean: the existing internet, can co-exist with and compliment mesh networks. Staltz's [Multi-modal connectivity](https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25OryfD6hGpjiqwFkKyFnhVPZMPsZF...) puts it more eloquently.

> it seems highly unlikely that people in developed nations are willing to accept drastic slowdowns in their connections.

Never underestimate the value of cheapness! I know some people who don't have home broadband; they just use their phone's data connection. It's slower, but it's adequate, and it's cheaper.

Mesh networking doesn't have to completely supplant ISPs. I want it to become a viable alternative, suitable for certain people depending on their priorities — like Linux!

> Caching might reduce this a bit, but is by definition not effective for "long tail" content.

If we're talking about data storage here (the flatbed truck — as opposed to data delivery, the series of tubes) then HTTPS can still be a highly-available option of last resort. If you want people to see your content, and no-one else is interest in replicating it, you can host it yourself or pay someone else to. Maybe use hashbase.io; they seem generous. If you mean data delivery, the packets have to traverse the internet somehow; it's just a question of whose box they go via.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#104
post #23

Content-addressed overlay networks work pretty well over the Internet, and they could work equally well on mesh networks (as the article posits), if not two rather awkward problems: storage at rest, and liveliness of a storage node. These two factors even interact to make the situation worse. Because at any point, nodes can drop off and you never know if this condition is temporary or permanent, a distributed datasto…

> a distributed datastore has to redundantly store everything Scuttlebutt gets around this: you only store and rebroadcast your friends' stuff (and anything else relevant to you). You're actually seeing content from your local storage — which is why Scuttlebutt works seamlessly offline — so there's no need for altruism.

Scuttlebutt?

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#105

If you really want to rescue the web find a way to restrict adware, spyware, and the like. I upgraded internet at my house to 1gbps (about 890mbps down and 920mbps up) and I hardly notice any speed difference surfing the web. Sad. Everything else is fast as hell though.

I have this too. Sadly I think it's more likely due to the fact that some of the largest websites have a speed limit per connection.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a distributed datastore has to redundantly store everything Scuttlebutt gets around this: you only store and rebroadcast your friends' stuff (and anything else relevant to you). You're actually seeing content from your local storage — which is why Scuttlebutt works seamlessly offline — so there's no need for altruism.

Scuttlebutt?

"a decent(ralised) secure gossip platform" [1], also referenced in the article.

[1] https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#107

In my view of history, P2P takes off and does well when it's faster for end-users than centralized solutions; P2P solutions fail when centralized solutions are faster. This holds regardless of the political advantages (or disadvantages) of P2P. BitTorrent is often faster for large files than centralized solutions, so people use it. (It's still inconvenient for a new user to kick off their first torrent, but WebTorren…

I think this is an accurate assessment of how things play out in the real world. It seems like many people here are attracted to decentralized solutions for ideological reasons, but don't realize/acknowledge that the vast majority of people don't care and will go with whatever is convenient for them.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#108
post #44
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it'd feel lightning fast compared to what we have now I disagree with this completely. So much of what JS does is increase the (perceived) speed and sanity of the user experience. For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their orde…

> I disagree with this completely. So much of what JS does is increase the (perceived) speed and sanity of the user experience. For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their ordering. Solution? Return of the chronological thread (no…

I think you're quite right. Browsers would need to add quite a few capabilities in order to support the world you envision, but those capabilities would be simpler and less generic than javascript support.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#109
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Is there still going to be room for entrepreneurship on this new Web? 2. To what extent will the lack of ability to monopolise, hurt the ability to create large amounts of revenues and profits? 3. Does this community also know about projects like OpenMined which seek to democratise access to data & infra to run ML algorithms on? Any pattern like reason you can think of, for it to have not come up in André’s post?

2. See my reply to 1! 3. I'm not personally familiar with OpenMined but decentralization is a pretty active space. SSB and Dat/Beaker have a few things in common: overlap in the communities, a focus on p2p hypermedia protocols, and not a lot of love for cryptocurrency solutions. That last point may change over time, but currently the usability, performance, and waste of the coins has left us all saying, "can't we do…

Any system with a fungible unit of account leads to plutocracy. Discuss :)

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#110
What makes people use centralized services is their utility. People will pick up new tools and repurpose them if they find them useful. In theory the web is supposed to be about communication and connection.

I think the emphasis on building a local network is a good idea. P2P mesh is cool but until it provides opportunities that don't exist otherwise it is unlikely to surpass.

The notion of building this for places without internet access is a positive angle but also tricky. Charity is seldom as successful or scalable as user driven initiatives. A lot of mobile phones now exist in places w/o "internet" per se. But from my understanding say converting a 3 year old smartphone into a mesh 1st device seems challenging from a wifi driver and power consumption and app perspective.

Balancing the project of design that is easy for non-technical people with the notion of eating your own dogfood one can theorize about building alternatives to the hierarchical Internet. This is the challenge though, figuring out how to build utility that is superior to the walled gardens and is in the hands of the users to control.

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