On a side note, do people have good resources on how to learn 'sales' as a software engineer?
I know how to sell myself and concepts pretty well inside the organization. Getting money from customers is a while different ball game
Learn to sell
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Re: Learn to sell
#102One of my first jobs out of college was software sales. Really opened my eyes to the absurdity of that industry. Very wolf of wallstreeet-esque. The tech was mostly repackaged opensource software with a nicer UI and the senior sales guys were doing copious drugs and bringing down like six figure commissions on multi-million dollar contracts. They hired an army of associates to generate leads and then swooped in to gr…
In terms of cinematic comparisons, your story brings to mind "Glengarry Glen Ross".
Re: Learn to sell
#103Just don't be one of the salespeople that promises the client a feature that doesn't exist, then returns to the team after making the sale and says "You have to build this now." F--- that noise.
Thats why its good for a salesrep to be technical and understand the product and how much work it would take for feature X. If the potential sale is worth the extra eng work then, hell yeah, go ahead and promise the feature.
My last company did that to close some multi-million dollar deals and only took a quarter to build.
Re: Learn to sell
#104My counter argument is I’ve tried to take this advice multiple times in my life and each time came to the (re)conclusion that I will never be able to think of it as anything but lying and manufactured conflict. Some of us just don’t have brains that allow for that kind of thinking, at least not without severe anxiety and discomfort.
I can’t sell. I’ll never be able to sell. I think that makes me feel like a more honest person. I’m okay with that trade off.
Re: Learn to sell
#105Does anyone have any book suggestions for an engineer who wants to learn sales / convincing people? Do you recommend doing trial by fire and getting a sales job? I've realized that I am good at the technicals but terrible at selling why people should do what I say.
"You Can Negotiate Anything" by Herb Cohen. While not a sales book per se (like the title implies, it's about negotiating) it gets you into the "sales" mindset. The sales mindset is about figuring out what matters most to the other party, and how you can provide it to them at minimal cost to yourself. Put like that it sounds very abstract and obvious but the book has a number of amusing anecdotes to illustrate these ideas.
Re: Learn to sell
#106Does anyone have any book suggestions for an engineer who wants to learn sales / convincing people? Do you recommend doing trial by fire and getting a sales job? I've realized that I am good at the technicals but terrible at selling why people should do what I say.
Steli Efti published a bunch of practical articles online (free!) that I found really easy to understand:
http://blog.close.io/b2b-cold-calling-tips
http://blog.close.io/5-cold-email-templates-that-will-genera...
http://blog.close.io/follow-up-emails
http://blog.close.io/how-to-give-product-demos-that-sell
http://blog.close.io/how-to-do-referral-sales
This net of articles (a bit of a rabbit hole!) is sprinkled with videos of Steli, so you can gauge the energy level and sales delivery too. I found this to be useful as well, something hard to pick up from a book.
Re: Learn to sell
#107This sounds interesting in theory. As an engineer starting out, where would you specifically go to start on a sales career? I just looked at Craigslist and the ads look really sketchy. I'm thinking to come in and interview for am engineering role and then say, you know I was thinking..
Re: Learn to sell
#108The life of an engineer is a life if sacrifice and 7 days a week work for five days pay. Often you never have a partner so you're the most highly taxed people in the country especially in California. While you often work triple time you're rarely if ever paid for overtime it's taken for granted that you're not ever compensated for 3/4 of the hours you work. Nothing can happen without you but sales people get a piece…
Why don't you leave then? There are jobs everywhere. Even in the smallest town in middle on nowhere (say Montana) you can find a job. It might not be a perfect fit for your skills, but you can find one. There are thousands of small towns scattered across the US with some little company that makes something obscure but essential to society. Example: you probably never think about sewage pumps (not the treatment plant,…
Hey, I actually built a data controller (H/W & S/W) for a pump station when I was between jobs :-)
Re: Learn to sell
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not a founder but agree with a13n. Working long hours is not the norm for software development. I live in a city 99% of the people here have never heard of, working 40.0 hours a week (not 36, which seems like an odd number to pick), and I'd need to make $330k in San Francisco to have the same standard of living. There are plenty of very well compensated 40-hour-a-week software development jobs available.
i'd like to hear about this city
Pick one. There are thousands across the country!
Re: Learn to sell
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Boohoo, you're one of the most highly taxed people... aka you make a lot of money? You know how lucky we are to get to do what we love and get paid heaps for it? Honestly there are plenty of software engineering jobs (in the Bay Area and out) that pay you six figures to work 9-5. Your experience isn't the norm. Go join a big company if you want comfortable. Then your equity will actually be worth something too, one l…
Nobody is "lucky" to be working long hours. No matter how much they love what they're doing. An engineer making $150k working 60 hour weeks is making $5/hr less than an engineer earning $100k working 36 hour weeks. The latter is literally earning more _for their time_ working half as much for 2/3 the salary. The hourly rate of an engineer earning $250k for 60 hour weeks is the same as an engineer earning $150k for 36…
Yeah your math totally makes sense. I just disagree with the premise:
> The life of an engineer is a life if sacrifice and 7 days a week work for five days pay.
This just isn't true. Maybe at certain startups, but it's your choice to work there. As a (qualified) software engineer, you're blessed with thousands of options, many extremely comfortable. Flexible hours, free food, great pay, no dress code.
When so many people are struggling just to make ends meet, I have very, very little sympathy for someone in shams' situation. Just get a new job.