Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them • Hacker News Board

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#101

Post by carry_bit » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #97

creaghpatr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To pander to people who believe that Islamic terrorists are a greater threat to them than the ladder in their garage A poor straw man argument, and it's telling that you need untruthful hyperbole to make your point.

In what sense is it a straw man argument? Republicans favor spending enormous amounts of money fighting Islamic terrorists, while ignoring much more probable threats. That is not hyperbole, it is sad truth.

Compare the rate for both of those aggregated over the last 5 years to the previous 5 years.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#102

Post by chowchowchow » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 7:19 PM UTC

juliangoldsmith wrote: post #95

chowchowchow wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If something being suspicious is cause to believe it, That's not what I said at all, I was talking about the reality of the suspicious acts, not the reality of their implications. But the immediate refocus to the Clintons, when nobody was talking about them, is plenty illuminating about where this will go if we keep discussing.

I don't think discussing President Trump's main political opponent during the election is too large of a jump. Are the Clintons off-limits, or do you just not want to consider the possibility that they might be up to no good?

> Are the Clintons off-limits

Umm, no. Not off limits. But also not relevant, for the same reason I didn't bring up George W. Bush and his administration. Your pivoting of this discussion into one of my personal opinions about the Clintons is super revealing.

I truly don't know what it has to do with anything, but it appears you're trying to catch me personally in some kind of contradiction? Even if I were holding contradictory views about these matters (I don't think I am), what relevance does that have to the factuality of there being enough suspicion around the 2016 election and actors within Trump's campagin to warrant an investigation?

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#103

Post by amarkov » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 7:23 PM UTC

aaron-lebo wrote: post #56

amarkov wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously I can't verify this, but for example he had a professor who actively taught that nations are a completely artificial social construct, and as such all immigration policies of any sort are illegitimate and harmful. But that's a very mainstream position in economics, with much stronger arguments behind it than ideological purity. And it's typically supported by libertarians more than progressives, since the…

But that's a very mainstream position in economics, with much stronger arguments behind it than ideological purity. What mainstream economists believe all immigration policies are illegitimate and harmful? Not being snarky. That would be considered a fairly ideological stance in most other fields. I've never heard that expressed in political science (some overlap with economics) from anyone but people on HN and Reddi…

The standard example is Michael Clemens, who argues the total cost of closed borders to the world is in the trillions of dollars. If you want an article reviewing more views: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/14/why-e...

The basic argument is just the standard free market argument. if A would like to sell their labor and B would like to buy it, and the government intervenes to stop them, that destroys whatever value they could have gotten from the exchange. The fact that there are some border markers between A and B doesn't change that value, although it may introduce externalities.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#104

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

juliangoldsmith wrote: post #38

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

>As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. The problem is the gap between consensus reality and objective reality. A lot of what the American left has been preaching recently (the Russia-Trump story, for instance) has no basis in objective reality,…

> A lot of what the American left has been preaching recently (the Russia-Trump story, for instance) has no basis in objective reality,

Collusion by Trump campaign with the Russian government is not an issue brought up by the left specifically (if anything, it's catnip for centrists; the left have bigger fish to fry), and that you're framing it as such makes me think you're using it as an excuse to ignore it.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#105

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 7:35 PM UTC

juliangoldsmith wrote: post #38

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

>As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. The problem is the gap between consensus reality and objective reality. A lot of what the American left has been preaching recently (the Russia-Trump story, for instance) has no basis in objective reality,…

> A lot of what the American left has been preaching recently (the Russia-Trump story, for instance) has no basis in objective reality

This claim has no basis in objective reality.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#106

Post by ConceptJunkie » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 7:37 PM UTC

mmierz wrote: post #92

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> +As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. The two clauses in this sentence are contradictory. You are claiming that conservatives are stupid because they reject the herd mentality. Think about that.

Did you read the article in the post you're replying to? I don't think "herd mentality" is what the US far-right rejects.

Perhaps the right believes that the "consensus reality" which is just another word for what the herd thinks, is moving further and further from the truth. That kind of thing happens all the time.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#107

Post by juliangoldsmith » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

chowchowchow wrote: post #102

juliangoldsmith wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think discussing President Trump's main political opponent during the election is too large of a jump. Are the Clintons off-limits, or do you just not want to consider the possibility that they might be up to no good?

> Are the Clintons off-limits Umm, no. Not off limits. But also not relevant, for the same reason I didn't bring up George W. Bush and his administration. Your pivoting of this discussion into one of my personal opinions about the Clintons is super revealing. I truly don't know what it has to do with anything, but it appears you're trying to catch me personally in some kind of contradiction? Even if I were holding co…

An impartial investigation isn't unreasonable. Having an investigation conducted by someone (Robert Mueller) with ties to the Clintons (via James Comey) is.

Keep in mind that almost the entirety of the media and the political establishment in the United States opposes President Trump. If they had anything substantive on him, don't you think it would have come out after an investigation that's been going on for a year?

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#108

Post by smallnamespace » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 8:24 PM UTC

amarkov wrote: post #41

smallnamespace wrote: post #10

Just as an anecdote, met a recent state school grad who said he arrived on campus as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, tried to get into campus activism, and his fellow activists and teachers scared him so much that he's now not sure where he stands politically. Obviously I can't verify this, but for example he had a professor who actively taught that nations are a completely artificial social construct, and as such all im…

> Obviously I can't verify this, but for example he had a professor who actively taught that nations are a completely artificial social construct, and as such all immigration policies of any sort are illegitimate and harmful. But that's a very mainstream position in economics, with much stronger arguments behind it than ideological purity. And it's typically supported by libertarians more than progressives, since the…

This was hearsay from a secondhand source so I can't opine as to whether the interpretation was accurate.

However there are obviously large cultural, economic, security and other logistical issues that would be caused by completely opening up national borders -- we're certainly no longer in the era before WWI when nobody needed a passport. The classroom certainly sounds like a legitimate place to bring up these rather mainstream viewpoints.

Did some research and it does seem like there are both student- and teacher-led protests that are crossing the line into unreasonableness (from my perspective), e.g. protests against a humanities class for being too Eurocentric [1], or student demands for a Jewish professor to be fired because he publicly disagrees with a 'Day of Absence' event that asks for white students and faculty to stay off campus [2].

Then there's the promulgation of microaggression theory on campuses, which seems perfectly tailored to encourage all students to view every statement in the least charitable light[3] and to search for possible racism, sexism, or other possible -isms.

The fact that some people on the left are acting in a way where any disagreement with some interpretation of 'progressive' ideals automatically leads to accusations of racism is alarming, and is exactly the sort of prejudice (in the literal definition of the word) that I think fellow liberals should rally against.

[1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/11/reed-college-...

[2] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/05/30/escalating-de... -

[3] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-ris...

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#109

Post by vannevar » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 8:30 PM UTC

carry_bit wrote: post #101

vannevar wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sense is it a straw man argument? Republicans favor spending enormous amounts of money fighting Islamic terrorists, while ignoring much more probable threats. That is not hyperbole, it is sad truth.

Compare the rate for both of those aggregated over the last 5 years to the previous 5 years.

Or you can simply look at the probability of various causes of death: http://www.businessinsider.com/death-risk-statistics-terrori.... They don't specifically have ladder deaths, but at about 300/year, it would rank between heat waves and electricity on the list.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#110

Post by jtbayly » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 8:54 PM UTC

throwaway648fus wrote: post #80

jtbayly wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations on being the straw man. But seriously, this is exactly the sort of attitude and comment that gave us Trump as president. The idea that truth is relative was taught to the America public by the academy. Now you say that the academy is a place dedicated to the pursuit of "knowledge" and speak of the "value of fact" as if these are absolutes. But you do so just after talking about "consensus reality." Ma…

Yes, yes, we all know the narrative that quite literally everything liberals do in modern society were the straw that broke the camels back and forced millions of Americans to vote for Trump. Everything from elite colleges' safe spaces to shopping at Whole Foods. Or perhaps it's simpler than that: a large swath of Americans unimpressed Hillary Clinton's largely uninteresting business-as-usual policies matching her hu…

Remove the first sentence where I mentioned Trump and my point still stands. My comment wasn't primarily about the election. It was about the absurdity of claiming to be the champion of facts in the same breath as you complain about people not believing in your "consensus reality."

That isn't a "nitpick about the liberals in my life." It's just responding to the parent comment.