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Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

reuters.com

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Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#101

Post by eru »

chimeracoder wrote: post #92
Joeboy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London. Not if you consider it the kind of job where you should be able to afford luxuries like a family, a car, a mortgage, saving for retirement etc. It probably does sound like a lot to people who live outside London and / or aren't considering those thing…

> £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London It's more than the typical software engineer can expect to make in London. Source: Glassdoor, Indeed, talking to colleagues who live in London, and my own memories from my last job search.

You'd be very junior to make less than 55k GBP as a software developer in London. (Like less than three years working experience or so.)

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#102

Post by switch007 »

Joeboy wrote: post #88
Ntrails wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not entirely true. The strike was over the fact that if not enough drivers _volunteered_ to do the night shifts, TFL could assign non volunteers. They would still be compensated for the work hours being particularly antisocial. It is also true that Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. The change was absolutely funded - just not as well as the union would…

> Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London. Not if you consider it the kind of job where you should be able to afford luxuries like a family, a car, a mortgage, saving for retirement etc. It probably does sound like a lot to people who live outside London and / or aren't considering those thing…

Also, benefits include:

- Final salary pension (5% contribution)

- Free travel on TfL network for employee and one family member (could be worth something like £130/mo x 2)

- Free parking at tube stations for 1 partner/family member (£5/day)

- 29+ days holiday + bank holidays

- Retail discounts

The person I know who works for TfL certainly doesn't complain.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#103

Post by pjc50 »

eriken wrote: post #55
dsacco wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where unions realize that competitiveness trumps wages. It seems like you’re sneaking an assertion in there. Can you clarify your point a bit? What is the relationship between competition and wages, and why is one better than the other for unions?

Well if a company cannot compete because wages are too high then the company goes under and jobs are gone. Germany is a good example of this, they have a ton of unions and lots of production but the unions understand that competition is key to survival so there are very few strikes.

The German works-council system is exceptional, though, and it's a key part of making that work. There has to be trust in the other direction. Trust that accepting a competitive pay deal won't just immediately result in more executive pay, payouts to shareholders, or the factory being closed anyway.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#104

Post by hackbinary »

chimeracoder wrote: post #63
brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a "FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Similarly,…

>> It's way more complicated than that ...

I don't think so. The media (the 4th estate) is now basically a mouth piece for the corporations. Noam Chompsky has written extensively on this, and the west really does not have a diverse spectrum of opinion, information, and perspective in popular, widely distributed and readily available information sources.

Media and information sources have been consolidated into a few centralised corporate ownerships that are not interested in social justice and a fair distribution of wealth. Quite the contrary, the corporate interests are simply interested in generating shareholder profits and wealth. Indeed, the directors of media companies are duty bound to generate as much profit for their respective corporations. This naturally means that the media corporations are interested in consolidating and centralising as much wealth for themselves as possible, and will cater their information and direction of opinion to achieve that end.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#105

Post by gsnedders »

chimeracoder wrote: post #92
Joeboy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London. Not if you consider it the kind of job where you should be able to afford luxuries like a family, a car, a mortgage, saving for retirement etc. It probably does sound like a lot to people who live outside London and / or aren't considering those thing…

> £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London It's more than the typical software engineer can expect to make in London. Source: Glassdoor, Indeed, talking to colleagues who live in London, and my own memories from my last job search.

OTOH, they have worse health prospects than most software engineers and they mostly have contractual requirements to live within x miles of the depot they're based out of.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#106

Post by Joeboy »

chimeracoder wrote: post #92
Joeboy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London. Not if you consider it the kind of job where you should be able to afford luxuries like a family, a car, a mortgage, saving for retirement etc. It probably does sound like a lot to people who live outside London and / or aren't considering those thing…

> £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London It's more than the typical software engineer can expect to make in London. Source: Glassdoor, Indeed, talking to colleagues who live in London, and my own memories from my last job search.

Personally I would say a tube driver is just as entitled to a decent life as an average software developer but I realize this may be the wrong audience for that argument.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#107

Post by c0nducktr »

stale2002 wrote: post #85
09094920394314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism. Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable? And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And wh…

How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave? If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

Nobody's forcing you to work for a union shop. Find a place that isn't unionized if you don't want to be part of a union.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#108

Post by 09094920394314 »

stale2002 wrote: post #85
09094920394314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism. Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable? And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And wh…

How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave? If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

> How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave?

>If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

If you can convince enough people, you can? But if people organize against you, be a good loser. Nobody except the very hardcore is saying:

>If private property is so great, then everyone who wants to have it should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to accomodate them

to argue against private property or capitalism. But the same social contract that allows for private property can decide that if you want to have its benefits (e.g. the aforementioned private property) can recognize and protect the hard won rights of unions and workers. Stealing a bit of rhetoric, those who don't like it can go to some warlord ridden backwater, I hear there you are free to not follow any social contract if you are up to it

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#109

Post by dragandj »

tdeck wrote: post #86
bambax wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is indeed actively pushing "Black Friday", and Fnac is playing catchup. But I don't know if anyone in France is aware that "Black Friday" means "discount"...? Also, discount days are regulated in France (called "les soldes"); normally you can't have a discount day any time you want, you have to apply for authorization. I sell on Amazon in Europe for the first time this year (started in January); I don't do dis…

> Also, discount days are regulated in France (called "les soldes"); normally you can't have a discount day any time you want, you have to apply for authorization. What is the rationale for that?

I don't have an answer for this particular thing, but will remind you that any bureaucracy tends to expand. So, what's the (state's bureaucracy) rationale to put itself at a place of control? Do they even need one?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#110

Post by yardie »

simias wrote: post #72
pouetpouet wrote: post #2

Black friday is a thing in Italy??

This year it's a thing in France too apparently, or at least some vendors are pushing it. See for instance amazon.fr's frontpage or even the local fnac.com. When I saw "black friday" on their landing page I thought I had gone on the american version by accident. It's odd because Thanksgiving is only something you see in American sitcoms over here. American cultural imperialism is really impressive. I can understand w…

Just a few things I wanted to point out as a former Parisian. Thanksgiving is always on a Thursday. Usually, if work allows it, everyone takes the Friday off as well. The French are familiar with this, "le pont" unofficial holiday. This friday is almost exactly 1 month before Christmas. Black Friday serves as a signal that Christmas shopping begins now.
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