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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#101

Post by dontreact »

fastball wrote: post #77
dontreact wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was only a single government in the world that would be true but really there are many governments making and collecting taxes, and their tax codes interact in unexpected ways. At this point I truly believe that it's not possible for a single government to unilaterally avoid such "optimizations" without some help from large multinational corporations leading the charge to coordinate tax codes across countrie…

You're not thinking simply enough. Watch - I'm going to write a tax code: If you are a business and sell a product or service in my country, you need to pay X% in taxes on that sale. If you live in my country, you need to pay Y% in income tax. You get the idea. The issue isn't that making a loophole free tax code is super difficult. The issue is that every country thinks they can capture more mindshare/businesses/wha…

Ok great now I'm going toe the lines of the definitions of "sell", "product", and "service" to the point where even though in spirit the sales are all happening in your country, technically they aren't so you can't tax me for them. So again your country is fine if it's the only one in the world, but there only needs to be a single country in the world which lets me get away with fewer taxes and then I can avoid paying yours.

I agree that the hard part is coordination, but I stand by my belief that we will never see change on this issue unless a major multinational company decides to take it on for PR reasons. Which will only happen if there is pressure from the government, media and consumers.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#102

Post by tankenmate »

fastball wrote: post #69
tankenmate wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I think that it is morally justified that I should be able to use roads, send my kids to school, and drink water that has been paid for by all those not smart enough or earn billions enough to avoid paying taxes. I think it is morally right that I shouldn't pay my fair share because I and my other well heeled chaps can lobby governments in some small country to pay 25 times less tax than others. I think it is mor…

My point is that this isn't about morality. Taxes are not a moral problem. Tax evasion is a moral problem because breaking the law is a moral problem. I don't think forcing people to pay any amount of money (taxes) is moral. Is it good for society? Yes. Is it moral? Who knows? How are you so easily making moral judgements when morality is so subjective? I find the idea of forcing my morality on anyone else repugnant,…

I'll quote the first sentence from your post, "I think tax avoidance is morally justified."

But more broadly, laws are not always moral. If you equate laws with being moral (or equitable which is hopefully a subjunct matter), then personally I think your view of the world is far more black and white than reality.

In my view morality (and part of which is equality) should lead to legality not the other way around.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#103

Post by Kale_Rogers »

Do the right thing. Paying no taxes on generated revenues is obviously not the right thing. Pay taxes. Care about how these taxes are spent. Become an active part of the democracy that empowers a government. If you are not happy with a tax system, argue. If you feel not represented, vote with your feet and leave the country. Though don't play tricks. Don't pretend you are a proud part of a country that you betray.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#104

Post by yAnonymous »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

I'm really waiting for someone who makes the tax evasion system scale for small companies and regular people.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#105

Post by orwin »

draugadrotten wrote: post #90
snappyTertle wrote: post #83

I don't get why people think paying more taxes is "moral". There are a lot of things the government spends on that I don't agree with...and I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

People usually feel (don't think) that it's moral for OTHERS to pay more taxes. They also feel (don't think) that's moral for themselves to pay less. It's called socialism.

Well, i feel its moral for me to pay all my taxes, and even though i also give money to charity, i don't use this fact to reduce my taxes, because i feel a lot of people need this money way more than me. This is socialism.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#106

Post by auxym »

hackerguy99 wrote: post #100
sschueller wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same goes for US individuals living abroad not having any business relations or even holdings in the US. Yet they are required to file and pay US taxes in addition to local taxes.

When it hits the fan, and you want to come back to the US for safety, unmolested, you'll be able to. Should that be free?

It is in Canada, Europe...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#107

Post by chiefalchemist »

thanatropism wrote: post #70
jacquesm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear Tim, You don't understand how shares work. Shareholders can only benefit from shares in two ways: through speculation about the share price or through dividends. I'm kind of disappointed that I'd have to explain to a man of your stature that money that Apple parks abroad will not benefit the shareholders except in the most indirect ways. If Apple brought home their overseas funds then it would benefit the US and…

> The taxes paid would go towards infrastructure, education, health care and other items that benefit all people in our society, and by extension also to us shareholders. This assumes, of course, that governments can spend the money as efficiently as Apple.

It depends on the definition of efficient. Apple's et al would be obligated to invest for the benefit of shareholders; a small minority of the broader population.

On the other hand, in theory, the government invests - and often simply spends (read: little concern for any sort of return) - for the broader good.

On a personal note: What confuses me is when outfits like Apple complain about the quality of workers, yet avoid taxes. Taxes that could, at least in theory, be used for edu. That's hypocritical, and (to me) counter productive.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#108

Post by bmomb »

sschueller wrote: post #86
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Same goes for US individuals living abroad not having any business relations or even holdings in the US. Yet they are required to file and pay US taxes in addition to local taxes.

But as an US citizen you still use some US benefits like the army and international protection, right?

(I'm not from USA or currently living abroad but i think that is "fair")

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#109

Post by tomatocracy »

sschueller wrote: post #86
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Same goes for US individuals living abroad not having any business relations or even holdings in the US. Yet they are required to file and pay US taxes in addition to local taxes.

The US is the only major country in the world that has such a ridiculous and distorting rule for corporate taxation as the repatriation rules. This single rule drives a very large portion of the global tax avoidance industry. It drives economic behaviour which results in misallocation of resources via situations like companies borrowing onshore US against their overseas cash horde and using the proceeds to return to shareholders.

They should abolish this silly rule and go with what everyone else does: either tax US corporates on global earnings and allow deductions for foreign taxes paid, or tax territorial earnings only.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#110

Post by q-base »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #68
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social responsibility part is what it is all about. If corporations use their legal and bargaining power to opt-out of the social contract then everybody will lose. There is such a thing as being too big and I firmly believe that most multinationals are no longer playing by the rules in the sense that they violate the spirit of those rules whereever they can by focusing solely on the letter of the rules. That's a…

What's to be done about it? We're the ants. That depressing truth has a way of manifesting. I'm not quite sure what to feel about it. Our attempts here are futile. We're not going to get any legislation passed. The fact is, companies can opt out of the social contract. They are big, and they're going to play by different rules. But I don't think that's strange -- that's just life. It happens in China and Russia. Why…

2 wrongs don't make a right.

I can't tell you exactly how to solve it. Perhaps a close look at Japans "Tax Haven Counter Measure Law" could be a part of the solution: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/dennis-howlett/japan-shows-how-...

But playing by different rules once you are big enough sure as hell ain't right.

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