The Disappearing American Grad Student • Hacker News Board

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#101

Post by RA_Fisher » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 1:08 PM UTC

taway_1212 wrote: post #75

watwut wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" it is not in our interest to pander to the rankings, because they encourage expenditure of a large amount of resources to train a few people " What do you mean by that?

You need top scientists to get publications in Nature, Science etc. These scientists (and the equipment they need) cost a lot, and it's unclear whether it's actually a reasonable investment for a country where so many basic needs (ex. reliable electricity) are still unmet.

Except the American scientists we're paying aren't publishing their statistical code or data just an advertisement of scholarship. I'm not convinced it's a good deal. In fact, I think it's probably a huge waste considering the opportunity cost of the money.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#102

Post by hocuspocus » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 1:24 PM UTC

wickberg wrote: post #66

laichzeit0 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not go for Option 2, but do your post-grad part time while working? It might take 10 years instead of 6, but by then you'd have 10 years work experience, capital, etc.

Part time PhD's are rare - most professors need their grad students to be working on their grant-related research projects as RAs. That work is then used as the basis for your dissertation. As a part time PhD student you'd need to either have your own research planned out (and separate from the professor's grant-related work) which also implies you're likely to be paying out of pocket for tuition. Or find a professor…

I live in Switzerland where privately funded PhDs are possible (though also rare) and things work a bit differently since tuition is about $500 a semester. Yet, it's typically not a good deal (for you, that is, for the school it's an incredible deal). You're typically hired at a 50-60% rate by your employer, and while that's comparable to a university salary, overall it's a lot more work, you have to deal with your boss plus your supervisor, the school and the company fight over ownership of your work, and you still have some obligations as a student in terms of credit and TA hours. The worst of both worlds :)

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#103

Post by trying_to_code » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 1:28 PM UTC

gozur88 wrote: post #28

meric wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$800 is about the monthly salary for so many Chinese I’m finding it hard to think it is unobtainable.

That's more than double the median Chinese wage. Granted, that's still a lot of people in absolute terms.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=china+gdp+per+capita&ie=utf-8...

In 2016,the average Chinese GDP per capita is 8,123.18 US dollars, it is almost as much as Russia ($8,748.18) or Mexico ($8.201.31). This really surprised me.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#104

Post by tmoot » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 2:05 PM UTC

I'm a frustrated grad student in STEM. I posted here a few days ago crowdsourcing for career advice on what to do next:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15610675

Thanks.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#105

Post by nonamechicken » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 2:08 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #49

fellellor wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

800$ is a very big sum for a lot of my countrymen. Also it is true that a lot of Indian schools operate with very few resources, that would be required to appropriately educate all the students they serve. And this makes them noncompetitive in international university rankings. And to be frank it is not in our interest to pander to the rankings, because they encourage expenditure of a large amount of resources to tra…

" it is not in our interest to pander to the rankings, because they encourage expenditure of a large amount of resources to train a few people " What do you mean by that?

" train a few people who may or may not directly help the nation's economy."

The words "who may or may not directly help the nation's economy" makes me think they mean this: IITs are considered the top institutions in India. I have heard that the people who come out of these IITs don't really help India. Most of them end up working in developed countries and contribute to those economies. Nothing much for India. So, it doesn't make sense to spend money on them. If I have to choose between funding for one IIT or 5-10 low grade engineering colleges, I would choose the latter because in some way, it is still benefiting India. IITs, I don't know.

Just my thoughts based on those quoted words.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#106

Post by Retric » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 2:09 PM UTC

drewg123 wrote: post #80

tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

There's also option 1.5: You start at a grad school in a PhD program (so that you have support and do not pile up debt), and you leave with a Masters as quickly as you can. I managed to get my MS in CS back in the early 90s in one calendar year. I had full support via a fellowship since I was one of the top students, so I did not have to be an RA or TA, and could take additional classes. I finished all but my MS Thes…

Even that's likely worse than simply taking a MS at night for ~3 years while making ~100k. Painful yes, but having a MS slightly sooner is not going to make such a huge salary difference over 3 years. And you can get a feel for what the job is like.

The third option of a MS to simplify a mid career pivot point is also worth considering. Really, picking something you want to stick with for the next ~45 years at 20 is risky.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#107

Post by taway_1212 » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

RA_Fisher wrote: post #101

taway_1212 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need top scientists to get publications in Nature, Science etc. These scientists (and the equipment they need) cost a lot, and it's unclear whether it's actually a reasonable investment for a country where so many basic needs (ex. reliable electricity) are still unmet.

Except the American scientists we're paying aren't publishing their statistical code or data just an advertisement of scholarship. I'm not convinced it's a good deal. In fact, I think it's probably a huge waste considering the opportunity cost of the money.

Some people argue that US government’s generous spending on sciences is in big part for security reasons - so that, if the next deadly weapon is to be discovered, US will have it first. In such case, sharing code and data is be counterproductive.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#108

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 2:14 PM UTC

Grad school is an immigration pathway these days that in my experience brings zero benefit to most jobs.

Where it matters, you see a more normal/typical level of diversity.

For most things tech, it’s meaningless. I literally give it zero weight for hiring unless the candidate had a non-qualifying bachelors degree, needed a couple of years of experience, or they went to a foreign school for undergrad and a US grad school (less paperwork).

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#109

Post by gozur88 » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:28 PM UTC

trying_to_code wrote: post #103

gozur88 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more than double the median Chinese wage. Granted, that's still a lot of people in absolute terms.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=china+gdp+per+capita&ie=utf-8... In 2016,the average Chinese GDP per capita is 8,123.18 US dollars, it is almost as much as Russia ($8,748.18) or Mexico ($8.201.31). This really surprised me.

Yes, but that's because there are a few people who are extraordinarily wealthy. The median is a better measure of what people make.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#110

Post by privacypoller » Sat, Nov 04, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

laichzeit0 wrote: post #60

tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

Why not go for Option 2, but do your post-grad part time while working? It might take 10 years instead of 6, but by then you'd have 10 years work experience, capital, etc.

Most programs also have a time limit for completion, around 4 years for a Masters and 7 for a PhD.

I did my Master's part-time while working and it was brutal to work full-time then head to class for 3+ hours several times a week, or have to make special arrangements so I could leave work early to make a specific class. I also remember desperately preparing for a defense scheduled days before the birth of my second child (I finished up 2 days before he was born!).

I found that FT grad students and some profs treat you poorly because you're "a PT industry" student, and your co-workers, boss, etc. treat you like you're taking a continuing ed course from the learning annex. It's the worst of both worlds.