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The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#101

Post by tener »

dukoid wrote: post #95
rwcarlsen wrote: post #25

I just wanted to come here and show some respect for religious communities that work very hard to help people and the world become a better place. On hacker news, I would hope we can be rational and respectful about beliefs that are important to (many real and good) people. There are many religious people/beliefs that I agree with - and many I disagree with - we can discuss that like adults. But sarcastic, unkind rem…

People can do good without attached irrationality. In particular, I think no kid should be forced to take part in any of this. I found it greatly disturbing as a kid that adult people / school teachers who should know better and / or should serve as role models would present irrational activities like praying as if they were perfectly normal. Do what you want, but please keep people like me out of it until they are o…

Your argument is based on an opinion - "praying is irrational (because it clearly cannot work)" - that religious people do not hold! If they were to share your opinion I guess most would abandon the practice.

In this context one can see why they choose to raise their children in such a way. It would be irrational not to teach them how to pray if this is such an important part of their lives. Would you wait for your kids to grow up before teaching them personal hygiene because it is ultimately their choice?

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#102

Post by astura »

Old_Thrashbarg wrote: post #48

How come this story seems to have suddenly dropped off the first 3 pages of HN?

Its been flagged.

Which is a shame, because the only real non-productive comment came from fourfaces which is a rarely used novelty account with -4 karma and the topic is interesting to discuss.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#103

Post by astura »

oculusthrift wrote: post #61
arconis987 wrote: post #38

I wonder what kinds of communities will replace religious communities. I worry that people may tie their identities to political tribes more and more. What communities provide a healthy sense of identity and belonging that are not religious or political?

none currently, but we need them desperately.

You really believe that's zero secular communities? This is, of course, not at all true. There's even atheist and skeptic communities.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#104

Post by astura »

maldusiecle wrote: post #73
bkeroack wrote: post #28

Coming Apart by Charles Murray is an incredibly important book that goes into detail about this including immense amounts of statistical data. The core of American civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values and the fact that faith in those are rotting away is directly leading to slow-motion social collapse. I understand the average HN reader is probably areligious (the book goes into the class dynamics of why th…

Might as well mention that the book's full title is "Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010", and that Murray is best known for his controversial comments about race in his book The Bell Curve. Suffice it to say, Murray's version of the "core of American civilization" is something I'd be very happy to see disintegrate. I doubt I'm the only one.

Are people really that triggered by extremely relevant factual information to downvote it?

The Southern Poverty Law Center, with very good reason, has classified him a a White Nationalist https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/indi...

The writings that I've read by him (which I admit, isn't much) can be summarized as "minorities are genetically inferior because... science." (and the subtext is a lot nastier)

I'll agree I want no part of whatever Charles Murray's vision of America should be. I also wouldn't classify any of his writings as "incredibly important," his writings on race are largely discredited.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#105

Post by jcranberry »

CompelTechnic wrote: post #57

I welcome the general trend behind this, but I think that we are also losing something valuable with the general de-religioning of the US. I often volunteer with Habitat for Humanity, and I find that the (majority religious) people there are kind, generous, and overall awesome people. I ascribe a lot of this to their religious convictions. It's also possible though that I'm getting a selection bias of the kindest Chr…

I think the "de-religioning" is a symptom, not a cause, and that the disease itself is a widespread decay of a sort old-America style of empathy.

I also think that religious people are not immune to this kind of thing, unfortunately.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#106

Post by astura »

kirse wrote: post #78
Simon_says wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that not golfing is a sport.

Quippy but untrue. "Not golfing" doesn't have news articles, blogs, apologetic tomes, influential figure-heads, social gatherings (online and offline), charitable organizations and all sorts of life and energy-consuming efforts dedicated to it. Atheism is indeed the religion of man, who has set himself on his own throne, denied the existence of a Creator, and crowned himself god - deciding that HE will be the arbiter…

If people who didn't golf were considered subhuman and needing of "saving" then non golfers would develop a supportive community too.

Please don't confuse "community" with "religion." Bronies also have those things you mentioned but not a single person would classify being a Brony as a religion.

(If you aren't familiar with the term, a Brony is an adult or teenaged male fan of the children's show My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony:_Friendship_Is_... )

Same with ideology, not all ideologies are religions. Believe that the Earth is flat is an ideology but not a religion even though personally having that ideology may be based on religious beliefs. Same with veganism.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#107

Post by Tenobrus »

ythn wrote: post #43
Tenobrus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using the fact that all are ideologies to attempt to smuggle in the connotations we have with "religion" and apply those to atheism and materialism. Examine those connotations directly and you'll see they don't sensically apply. For example: religion requires faith without evidence, materialism and atheism do not. Almost all religions make demands on the actions of their adherents, atheism almost by definition…

> Almost all religions make demands on the actions of their adherents This is a feature, not a bug? Otherwise what's the point?

I'm not necessarily disparaging it, rather pointing out there are clear and legitimate features of the category "religion" that ideologies like atheism don't share.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#108

Post by r00fus »

Zaak wrote: post #53

Does religion cause the evils of human nature, or is religion merely a means of expression for the evils of human nature? I see people glad that religion is decreasing, but is there evidence that the evils of human nature are decreasing, or are they merely taking different forms?

Monotheistic religion is a rootkit to the brain, and allows formation of organizations that are a) impervious to reason and b) allows concentration of power.

Religions aren't the only social construct that has this weakness but a hierarchy that resists accountability can result in some pretty bad outcomes.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#109

Post by r00fus »

BOBOTWINSTON wrote: post #60
lawlessone wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When i pray to Amazon they deliver.

Unlike Digiorno. In all seriousness though Atheism is still a belief system. It makes an assertion without the necessary evidence to fully back it up (which is both true and weirdly ridiculous). On the other hand Agnosticism is in itself removed from a specific belief system. It is an epistemological doctrine of sorts with both religious and non-religious applications. I find that most people use the word atheism com…

It's a bit silly to argue against absolute atheism (belief in no god) when the article simply says the growing population don't believe in a god (and this - agnosticism - is conflated with atheism to the confusion of many and benefit of those who argue for religion).

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#110

Post by astura »

fourfaces wrote: post #97
phailhaus wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a-theism literally means "lack of belief". Bald is not a hair color.

"a-theism literally means "lack of belief"" This is nonsense, of course. It shows a definite predilection among atheists to deceive themselves and others. Atheism is definitely a belief. But go ahead and believe otherwise, if you know what I mean.

"Everyone is just deceiving themselves and everyone else" is not a logical position to stand on.

I'll also point out this is a novelty account with negative karma.

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