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Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

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Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#101

Post by tenaciousDaniel »

mfoy_ wrote: post #28
tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been bothering me, the word "algorithm" is slowly becoming known as this ambiguously scary thing.

An "algorithm" is simply a way to do a thing based on a set of rules to be followed... of course it's ambiguous. Getting scared of anything that generic is silly. Might as well fear the outside because anything can happen out there!

Algorithm is an ambiguous word, but when people refer to them in the scary context, they are particularly talking about the kinds of algorithms the giants use to analyze and predict behavior. My only concern is that the word itself becomes associated with that one use case, which would be kind of sad because algorithms make up pretty much all software period.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#102

Post by KirinDave »

gmfawcett wrote: post #70
KirinDave wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if humans took responsibility for the algorithms they created and didn't shrug and say, "It's the algorithm" then "the algorithm" wouldn't be the antagonists in this story.

Even in that light, algorithms aren't the enemy: models are. If I build a predictive model that harms people, then my model is the cause of harm, not the fact that I built it using random-forest or CNN.

Models are algorithms with parameters.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#103

Post by s73ver_ »

mfoy_ wrote: post #91
s73ver_ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite not, actually. Humans have the ability to see nuance in things. Computers currently don't. So you see things like Google banning developers for innocuous violations of the rules, whereas humans (assuming they were given enough time to properly review) wouldn't give 3 strikes just because they saw the same violation 3 times.

No, that really is the definition of an algorithm. Algorithms and computers are NOT inextricably linked. Just because software often uses algorithms to define behaviour, doesn't mean algorithms cannot mean other things.

In the context being discussed, computers are involved and are the ones making the decisions.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#104

Post by JustSomeNobody »

sukilot wrote: post #96
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know he's thinking that? The way he was talking, I read him as "well it's obvious that nobody has stopped this behavior so it's fair to assume that not enough people noticed". Wouldn't you agree with that? I wouldn't. Anyone... everyone... who's worked retail _knows_ this. Anyone who's worked retail management knows this because when you ask to hire people you're told to hire part timers. Two part timers…

> you're told > you're told > It's simply unspoken.

Not the same thing.

You're told to hire part time. You're not told it's because the company doesn't want to pay them benefits. It's implied, but you're not told.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#105

Post by packetslave »

sukilot wrote: post #95
jordigh wrote: post #3

Is this his new meme-hustling? "Algorithm"? https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-meme-hustler I've never liked how Tim O'Reilly frames his discussion around vague terms like "open" which could mean participatory, transparent, available, or any other number of vague, feel-good terms. Now he seems to be calling "algorithm" things like economic models and government policy. These are widely disparate things, but by using v…

O'Reilly's in an interesting story. He became fabulously wealth by selling partly/mostly closed-source books about open-source software, in the short time-window when opens source existed while it was also possible to make money selling books (before Internet samizdat became cheap as free)

WTF is a "closed-source book"?

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#106

Post by fmihaila »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #10
jordigh wrote: post #3

Is this his new meme-hustling? "Algorithm"? https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-meme-hustler I've never liked how Tim O'Reilly frames his discussion around vague terms like "open" which could mean participatory, transparent, available, or any other number of vague, feel-good terms. Now he seems to be calling "algorithm" things like economic models and government policy. These are widely disparate things, but by using v…

That's been bothering me, the word "algorithm" is slowly becoming known as this ambiguously scary thing.

Yeah, 'algorithms' are the new 'chemicals'.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#107

Post by peterwwillis »

victorNicollet wrote: post #92
peterwwillis wrote: post #38

Have any of these tech "visionaries" (aka millionaires that we pretend have more insight than non-millionaires) considered that at the same time that we've increased our wealth we've also done more damage to our environment? If the cost of increased wealth is decreased habitat, will peak wealth result in the death of nature? Aside: people are still comparing AI to a machine that feels, and this is so stupid it boggle…

If a good algorithm optimizes for "quantity of paperclips produced", then it would recognize that "prevent humans from turning me off right now" is an optimal strategy. No fear of death involved, only pure rational optimization.

The thought experiment is not realistic, because no intelligent system would think it could produce paperclips infinitely, and it would already have an "off feature" which was designed for a purpose (maintenance, update, replacement), and was intended to be used. An intelligent system would not reject proper use.

We already replace humans at their jobs all the time and they only very rarely kill their masters to prevent it.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#108

Post by mfoy_ »

s73ver_ wrote: post #103
mfoy_ wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that really is the definition of an algorithm. Algorithms and computers are NOT inextricably linked. Just because software often uses algorithms to define behaviour, doesn't mean algorithms cannot mean other things.

In the context being discussed, computers are involved and are the ones making the decisions.

That's not the context of this discussion. Refer to the parent comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15417291

The context is the word "algorithm".

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#109

Post by AlexandrB »

gmfawcett wrote: post #78
AlexandrB wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout most of history rules and laws were enforced by a combination of "the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law". The latter being shorthand for the role of human discretion. Algorithms completely obliterate the latter - increasingly turning previously flexible systems into the equivalent of zero-tolerance-policy schools, where human discretion has no role to play. This is a problem because many laws o…

I write a faulty policy that harms people. I encode it as an algorithm, implement it as a program, and deploy it on a wide scale. Now it's automated and distributed, and it is harming people. Where is the fault --- in the program? in the algorithm? Or in the policy? Where do we fix the problem? IMO, we are quick to blame inanimate constructs, when people and their policies are the source of fault. Vilifying "algorith…

The argument I'm making is that when it comes to "human systems" like communities it's not possible to write a complete, consistent, and fair policy that can be unambiguously interpreted (i.e. by a computer). This is why Hacker News still has moderators and is not strictly governed by algorithms.

"Fairness" has always been heavily contextual, and the idea that it can be distilled to a matter of "if A and B then C" is folly. Even pure math can't reach the combination of completeness and consistency you assume is possible: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_the...

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#110

Post by edanm »

saulrh wrote: post #19
zghst wrote: post #11

"why capitalism is like a rogue AI" These people seriously need to take a step back. At some point you cross the bridge between reporting and actively advertising someone's personal views. I can't ever trust or read people who constantly try to push an agenda, it's disingenuous. Even more so, when reporting, engaging in personal exchange without the discussing data and statistics, i.e. the facts, you are just allowin…

Yes? This is an interview with an author that was conducted specifically to talk about the book and the material in it. What did you expect ? Unrelated, I'd like to see your argument against that particular line. IMO the comparison is an excellent one; its only issue is that the chosen scope ("the financial market") is too small. Corporations and other bureaucratic entities like governments are powerful cross-domain…

Calling financial markets AI is wrong in pretty much the only way a word can be "wrong": It's not what most people mean when they talk about AI.

This makes it really easy to make statements that sound deep and meaningful, but really aren't. E.g. "I'm not worried about Artificial Intelligence - we already have artificial intelligence, its called a company. Companies are artificial, and they behave intelligently".

This just isn't what people are worried about. What people are worried about is:

1. Soon we will be able to create software/robots that replace tons of human jobs. This has nothing to do with "companies as an AI".

2. A super-intelligence will be created that is vastly smarter than any human, and can make itself even smarter, but will have different goals than humanity. Again, this is only very thinly related to the "companies as AI" spiel (companies are not superintelligent, they don't actually have coherent goals of their own).

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