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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

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Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#101

Post by robg »

mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

Emotion itself is a communication platform and many times how you feel is not so easily communicated in ways that can be easily worked out.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#102

Post by RUG3Y »

gyardley wrote: post #70
mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate. Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almo…

Maybe he's never going to give a shit because her expectations are just too high. American women have sky high expectations.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#103

Post by saint_fiasco »

rootlocus wrote: post #92
chadlavi wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. I can't say I'm at all surprised to see that sort of mens-rightsism around ycombinator, though.

You're missing the point. > In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted—giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor. It's not about taking an equal share in the "emotional labor". It's about her not communicating proper intent,…

I think they don't "say what they really think" because it's hard work.

I hate gifts and would rather receive cash for a present, but if I were the sort of person who wanted a specific gift I would find it annoying to have to justify it, explain what the gift really means to me on a deep level, and so on.

That sort of "emotional labor" might in fact be the reason I dislike gifts, now that I think about it.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#104

Post by TFortunato »

greedo wrote: post #57
TFortunato wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing the forest for the trees a bit here by focusing just on cleaning standards. As the author said, part of the emotional labor is the management of the household but also the management of relationships within the house. This isn't about forcing a man "to fully adopt her perspective." This is about the idea that women are more often expected to be the ones to suggest a compromise, or to be the on…

Why must she? Because she's the one who has issues with it. A relationship needs communication, since mind-reading doesn't work yet. I'll try to avoid using he/she since the article itself is very sexist, as is your post. Partner's have different expectations, and one partner may not see an issue until it's brought to their attention. It has nothing to do with gender, or emotional labor or any other drivel. It has to…

You caught me off-guard a bit saying my post is sexist. To be clear I am NOT saying that this is how things are in all relationships, or how things should be. I'm very much in the camp of partners needing to be full partners, and for open and health communication.

I'm also not blind to the fact that there are still some deeply ingrained stereotypes, however subtle, about gender roles in our society, and I'm trying, perhaps poorly, to rephrase some points from the article (and others like it), in which the author very clearly names this: "the mental load bore almost exclusively by women."

This isn't a personal attack on you or your relationship. On the contrary, it sounds like you have a pretty healthy relationship, and I'm happy for you!

But the fact that this concept resonates with many people though, men and women, probably means there is something here that warrants more conversation for a lot of people, even if it isn't something that is a problem in your particular relationship.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#105

Post by brighteyes »

gyardley wrote: post #70
mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate. Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almo…

We have hard data on gun violence, proving it's mostly a male problem. But "emotional labor" is both poorly defined and supported anecdotally, so the discussion around it is often driven by sexist stereotypes, as in this article.

Partners in a marriage - or a business, too - often disagree about who should do what. It's not one-sided as the article presents. Now, there might be some common patterns like, say, women reminding men of their families' birthdays (an example from the article) but there are many opposite-gendered patterns, like remembering to check the oil or air pressure in her car, etc. Note how just mentioning such stereotypes is already kind of sexist - it's saying something bad about a whole gender ("men don't care about details of family life", "women don't care about details of car maintenance").

Stereotypically, women get frustrated by some things their partners don't care as much about, and likewise men get frustrated by other things their partners don't care about. Focusing on the stereotypes isn't productive, though, and not just because they are often wrong.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#107

Post by didgeoridoo »

gyardley wrote: post #70
mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate. Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almo…

I think you're arbitrarily privileging "giving a fuck" over "not giving a fuck". Try this:

Alice wants Task X to be done. Bob does not care whether Task X is done.

Let us stipulate that, if Task X is not done, nobody will be materially, objectively harmed.

Alice says: because I want Task X, you will do Task X. Alice does not ask Bob's opinion on Task X, but rather assumes that Task X is inherently necessary, and therefore Bob's opinion is not worth considering. In fact, Alice is annoyed that Bob hasn't taken the initiative to recognize the inherent necessity of Task X, and complete it on his own without being asked.

Bob does not believe Task X to be inherently necessary.

Option 1: Bob may complete Task X because it makes Alice happy. That's nice of Bob. Unfortunately, Alice is seething that she had to ask Bob in the first place. That's kind of mean of Alice.

Option 2: Bob fails to accomplish Task X, because it isn't his personal priority. That's kind of thoughtless of Bob, but Bob is a human and sometimes we let low-priority items drop off our radar. Alice will do Task X herself, furious that Bob did not do it.

Option 3: Bob fails to accomplish Task X, because it isn't his personal priority. Alice lets go of Task X, leaving it undone, because it's just Task X, and her relationship with Bob matters more to her than Task X. That's nice of Alice.

In a "fair" scenario, Option 3 should be on the table at least half the time. But it never is. Why can Alice not let go of Task X? Why MUST it be done? Why is Alice's perspective on the necessity of Task X to be privileged over that of Bob?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#108

Post by flachsechs »

gyardley wrote: post #70
mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate. Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almo…

> is almost always a male problem in our society

no it's not. maybe i can counter your sexist statement with another one: women just complain louder about it.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#109

Post by RUG3Y »

rootlocus wrote: post #92
chadlavi wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. I can't say I'm at all surprised to see that sort of mens-rightsism around ycombinator, though.

You're missing the point. > In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted—giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor. It's not about taking an equal share in the "emotional labor". It's about her not communicating proper intent,…

Spot on. Meanwhile the guy is working his ass off to try to make her happy, and she's complaining about "emotional labor", whatever the hell that is.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#110

Post by zubspace »

Waterluvian wrote: post #38
nkrisc wrote: post #29

This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…

That resonates with me. But I struggle a lot. I feel like my wife's irrationality on some subjects forces us to both spend some of our very limited time here feeling anxious and negative. It's frustrating and feels very one sided. Why can't she meet me half way and stop being so anxious on half the events? Well.. because irrationality doesn't work that way; I get that. I think that true zen for me is finding a way to…

I'm in a similar position. My wife's a planner. She over-thinks alot, creates lists for everthing and needs to discuss details with me/friends/parents which most of the time I deem unnecessary.

I realized that I can't change her. There's no single solution, but there are a few things she did, which helped her being more relaxed: Yoga, talk therapy, less coffee/more sleep, taking time outside of family. She also had iron deficiency; the doctor fixed this with iron infusions which really helped alot against feeling tired (also keep an eye on iron in food).

On the other hand, I try to be supportive and do not question everything she does or thinks anymore. Don't try to be a therapist, instead help her to fix herself :)

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