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Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

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Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#101

Post by pc86 »

tertius wrote: post #31
charlesdm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

Grades should be solely based on production. But intelligence without work is useless. Effort should be praised, but not rewarded if it's result did not get anyone further than they were before. Getting all B's is not a very good indicator of anything...

One thing I learned in college is that grades should be but are almost never an objective measure of how well someone understood the material covered.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#102

Post by pc86 »

tertius wrote: post #95
charlesdm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Grades in itself are often also not a good metric. There are plenty of intelligent kids who just skate through school achieving acceptable yet not amazing results, and you have others who have to work really hard to achieve similar results.

I had a B average at school, no need to study except the day before. This has caused some issues later in life...

My zero effort, A- average in HS pretty quickly became academic probation in college. It's unfortunately very common, and I was even warned about it before (and while) it was happening.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#103

Post by ballenf »

danielvf wrote: post #79

Perhaps there's a third way. My parents didn't praise us so much for our efforts, nor for "achievements", but they were really excited about the things and projects we were doing. It was like the whole universe was full of exciting things to be discovered and mastered. For example, if we were going down a river in a canoe, my dad wasn't talking about how much work we kids were doing, or how skilled we were. He was ta…

Not all hard work has the immediate payoff of your example. There are plateaus in early learning where the payoff is impossible to see and one most proceed on almost blind faith that the task is worthwhile. Or because someone else is making you do it.

Praise from a parent, mentor or teacher regarding the effort put forth in those moments can prevent the learner from giving up.

But I do agree that kids (or even adults sometimes) need help recognizing the mind-blowing wonder of nature and natural phenomenon around them. I like to take the approach of asking my kids why they think animals are doing what they're doing or why the water is rough in some spots but not others, etc. They get more praise for a more thoughtful or logical answers (effort) without regard for accuracy (outcome).

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#104

Post by Noos »

nwah1 wrote: post #51
charlesdm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

In some classes, where grades can be determined purely subjectively, instructors can use effort-based logic as a guiding principle. The problems, however, are multifold. I remember a high school art class where I just had a complete writers-block - or maybe artists-block - and was not able to do much on a large pencil drawing while sitting in class. I just couldn't work while seated in rows with everyone else sketchi…

Actually it's a good lesson I think.

You can't really sustain what you did long term. You have to learn how to draw in every situation over a longer period of time to do well. You can't binge draw like this over the long term and be healthy; you could very well have not been able to overcome the drawing by talent alone and have been unable to seek the teacher's help through technique.

Teachers don't just care about the result, they also want you to learn good process too.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#107

Post by darkengine »

Splines wrote: post #99
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

> I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. And yet, our work is completely the opposite. Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done. Parents inevitably take this approach at home as well. An A is an A is an A. Good marks are what we look for, and are a mental shortcut to know if your child is doing their work at school. But we…

Measuring improvement is even easier to cheat. One merely has to purposefully give wrong answers in the early parts of the class, and then answer more earnestly in the latter half of the class.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#108

Post by ng12 »

1337biz wrote: post #106

I don't like the idea that cheating is always a bad attribute. If a kid is able to play a game for its advantage and bend the rules, I respect that more than being able to follow the rules without thinking about how to get ahead.

Are you a proponent of larceny for the same reasons? Cheating is easy, not getting caught is harder. I'm failing to see how being a good cheater is admirable.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#109

Post by CptJamesCook »

Splines wrote: post #99
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

> I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. And yet, our work is completely the opposite. Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done. Parents inevitably take this approach at home as well. An A is an A is an A. Good marks are what we look for, and are a mental shortcut to know if your child is doing their work at school. But we…

Boss here. I care a lot about how hard an employee is working.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#110

Post by Splines »

darkengine wrote: post #107
Splines wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. And yet, our work is completely the opposite. Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done. Parents inevitably take this approach at home as well. An A is an A is an A. Good marks are what we look for, and are a mental shortcut to know if your child is doing their work at school. But we…

Measuring improvement is even easier to cheat. One merely has to purposefully give wrong answers in the early parts of the class, and then answer more earnestly in the latter half of the class.

You'd need to have continuous tracking of performance across grades. Low performance at the beginning of a school year would translate to a drop in progress compared to the end of the previous year.

You could still game it by aiming for the average, but really the average is the expectation. And in a world where subject matter difficulty can scale with a child irrespective of the skill level of peers their age, getting an average result on a test is ok.

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