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The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

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Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#101

Post by coliveira »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #66
RealityNow wrote: post #62

This is due to the entrenchment of neoliberalism since the 70s (famously Reagan in the 80s), the ideology that government's sole responsibility is to enforce free markets, any other function of government is bad, and that every aspect of life should be dictated by free markets. Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society, only individuals" sums it up. Rising wealth inequality is simply a byproduct of this.…

Way to take that Thatcher quote out of context in order to reverse its meaning. What she really said was: "No government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first… There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for…

The full quote only shows in more vivid colors the same regretful idea.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#102

Post by ergothus »

pdonis wrote: post #93
ergothus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American culture values individualism...and also has a strong "you can't tell me what to do!" reaction to social pressure. If those points are connected, I can easily see too much individualism interfering with cooperation even if the base ideas are not in conflict. Evidence: who are the heroes in american TV and movies? The rebel against authority, the one that breaks the rules. Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, House, I…

> who are the heroes in american TV and movies? The rebel against authority, the one that breaks the rules. Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, House All of these heroes cooperated with close friends, colleagues, and other people in order to solve problems and achieve goals. The difference is not individualism vs. cooperation. The difference is cooperation based on the voluntary choices of individuals, as needed to accomplish g…

I don't think we're talking about people that are utterly unwilling to cooperate with ANYONE. We're talking about whether they are willing to cooperate as a society.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#103

Post by wavefunction »

tasty_freeze wrote: post #95
tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

If there is a massive hail storm and my neighbor's roof is damaged and needs to be repaired, the reason all the neighbors don't pitch in and give him a new roof is insurance, not the government. You know, free market insurance. The part of your story about people pitching in has more to do with the skill sets of people back then vs now; even with all the desire in the world, I couldn't raise a barn. And in the case o…

I remember reading stories of folks in hospitals and nursing homes left to die during Katrina. Or how many Congress people from a certain political party voted against helping out folks devastated by Sandy.

In fact, the "greed is good, corporations are people, etc." mentality that promotes selfishness as a vice is a major plank of one of the main political parties of the US.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#104

Post by matt_wulfeck »

okaram wrote: post #84
tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

The government hasn't recently grown in scope, in any meaningful way. Since the 1980's, the government as percent of GDP has stayed about the same 30-35% ... our taxes are lower and our 'welfare' is arguably lower than in the 80s, so if it was growth of government, you'd see it it correlated with that I know it is cool to blame everything on the government, but ...

a percentage of GDP is a fairly meaningless measurement.

We've entered into an era of unprecedented government surveillance and power. We have agencies such as the DEA, NSA, homeland security, etc that wield enormous power over the lives of Americans.

Also the welfare programs are significantly more pervasive now. You have subsidized farming, subsidized food, subsidized business, subsidized housing, a subsidized economy.

At this point, aren't we all just living off the hand of the federal government? Isn't that by design?

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#105

Post by RealityNow »

cat199 wrote: post #76
RealityNow wrote: post #62

This is due to the entrenchment of neoliberalism since the 70s (famously Reagan in the 80s), the ideology that government's sole responsibility is to enforce free markets, any other function of government is bad, and that every aspect of life should be dictated by free markets. Margaret Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society, only individuals" sums it up. Rising wealth inequality is simply a byproduct of this.…

While I don't doubt this contributed, it also presumes that government is the main driver of social interation, which itself implies a non-participatory philosophy of the person.. If you are correct, how then did this philosophy get into place to begin with? I would argue that it is more likely the rise of corporatism in the post war era which brought massive disruption of 'organic' social networks and through the la…

I think all those are contributing factors, and you're right - it's not just the result of one thing.

It seems to be the result of a successful PR campaign on behalf of economists like Milton Friedman and the wealthy elites who stood to gain from it. The 1973 oil crisis was a tumultuous time, and so it was a ripe time for a new ideology.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/aug/18/neoliberalism-t...

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#106

Post by pdonis »

ergothus wrote: post #102
pdonis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who are the heroes in american TV and movies? The rebel against authority, the one that breaks the rules. Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, House All of these heroes cooperated with close friends, colleagues, and other people in order to solve problems and achieve goals. The difference is not individualism vs. cooperation. The difference is cooperation based on the voluntary choices of individuals, as needed to accomplish g…

I don't think we're talking about people that are utterly unwilling to cooperate with ANYONE. We're talking about whether they are willing to cooperate as a society.

> We're talking about whether they are willing to cooperate as a society.

And what does "cooperate as a society" mean? If there is indeed a goal that every member of the society has in common, then yes, it makes sense for everyone in the society to cooperate to achieve that goal. But too often, "cooperate as a society" really means that some people get to choose the goal and force everyone else to cooperate to achieve it, whether they agree with the goal or not. That is the kind of "cooperation" that the American culture of individualism rejects.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#107

Post by cmurf »

tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

I think the coercion argument is nonsense. There are all kinds of coercion including economic coercion that happens in free markets.

It also ignores vastly top end income tax rates for nearly 4 decades, which weren't less than 75%. And ignores the relatively higher taxes in other countries where people, where trust in government is much higher than in the U.S.

Taxes should be seen as fair, and increasingly Americans think that you can avoid taxes by having clever accoutants and attorneys. Leona Helmsley "We don't pay taxes; only the little people pay taxes" is an example of how tax burden has changed.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#108

Post by cmurf »

wavefunction wrote: post #103
tasty_freeze wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a massive hail storm and my neighbor's roof is damaged and needs to be repaired, the reason all the neighbors don't pitch in and give him a new roof is insurance, not the government. You know, free market insurance. The part of your story about people pitching in has more to do with the skill sets of people back then vs now; even with all the desire in the world, I couldn't raise a barn. And in the case o…

I remember reading stories of folks in hospitals and nursing homes left to die during Katrina. Or how many Congress people from a certain political party voted against helping out folks devastated by Sandy. In fact, the "greed is good, corporations are people, etc." mentality that promotes selfishness as a vice is a major plank of one of the main political parties of the US.

I think that's generous. If only it were limited to greed is good. This is about class, not merely greed. Class is the idea that some people are simply better than other people, be it by bloodline, family name, meritocracy. The preservation of the aristocracy is paramount, but right there along with it is aristocrats first, others second. Sometimes a distant second. If you have more money you get better education, health care, justice, and might even pay lower taxes as a percentage of earned income.

This sort of nonsense is also where we get prosperity theology from. You'd think these people would have read Job.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#109

Post by Mary-Jane »

They say nothing brings people together like a common enemy. I'm surprised no one has correlated the periods of 'good feelings' with incidence of war, at least of the ones that posed credible threats to the nation. The first polarization low immediately followed the war of 1812. From there polarization increased until WW1, at which point it abruptly halted, then plummeted through to the end of WW2.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#110

Post by [deleted] »

wavefunction wrote: post #103
tasty_freeze wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a massive hail storm and my neighbor's roof is damaged and needs to be repaired, the reason all the neighbors don't pitch in and give him a new roof is insurance, not the government. You know, free market insurance. The part of your story about people pitching in has more to do with the skill sets of people back then vs now; even with all the desire in the world, I couldn't raise a barn. And in the case o…

I remember reading stories of folks in hospitals and nursing homes left to die during Katrina. Or how many Congress people from a certain political party voted against helping out folks devastated by Sandy. In fact, the "greed is good, corporations are people, etc." mentality that promotes selfishness as a vice is a major plank of one of the main political parties of the US.

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