Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

uanews.arizona.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 185 posts

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#101

Post by balance_factor »

y0ssar1an wrote: post #86

Chomsky's politics can be summarized as: interpret everything the US does in the harshest possible light while torturing the data to make Hugo Chavez sound like a good leader.

Six years ago Chomsky wrote an open letter that said actions Hugo Chavez were taking were an "assault on democracy". How exactly is that "torturing the data to make Hugo Chavez sound like a good leader"? When Chavez was elected and freed the oil money of Venezuela from the hands of a small, corrupt, European-descendant aristocracy, being shared with poor and working class Venezuelans of all races, Chomsky was enthusiastic. Six years ago, when the government began taking actions that Chomsky thought were anti-democratic and authoritarian, Chomsky was critical.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#102

Post by PeterisP »

thethirdone wrote: post #13
cooper12 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit that link you shared was so frustrating to read. To think of all the productive things a great intellectual like Chomsky could be doing with his time. Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). He even hints at OP's "intentional ignorance" many times to…

> Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). Chomsky was not prepared to cede any points either. In many places, he does not respond to the probing questions asked of him at all (this is assuming the poster didn't add them in afterwards) instead opting to insult…

There's immense difference between ignorance and intentional ignorance - for intentional ignorance showing a path isn't helpful, since the problem is taking a step on the obvious path.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#103

Post by epx »

RobertoG wrote: post #32
em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that was the first video on Google search, which I quickly looked over, and had the necessary quotes from Chomsky to validate my point.

Chomsky opinion about Venezuela is not so difficult to understand if we make a honest effort. Unfortunately a honest effort, as reflected by your link, is not very common. Chomsky supported initially Chavez, (who, by the way, and not as your link insinuate, was democratically elected), because his government initially improved the conditions of the most humble people in the country. People that lived in misery in one…

So Chomsky was incredibly short-sighted when he praised Chavez. I am just an average guy, but I always knew that this story would not end well.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#104

Post by RobertoG »

galacticpony2 wrote: post #89
RobertoG wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that you define socialism as whatever it fails and capitalism as whatever it works. Pure capitalism has never existed neither, so we have a spectrum of possibilities. I would argue that the better system is the one that improve the lives or the people and, that should be the measure. Even if capitalism was the definitive answer, that doesn't mean that we should stop criticizing it. If you have a system…

> It seems to me that you define socialism as whatever it fails and capitalism as whatever it works. No socialist state that called itself a socialist state has been a success. None. Zero. There are democratic countries that may at some point have "social democrats" or even "socialists" in power. These countries may have passed some laws that are "socialist" in spirit, but virtually all of those countries employ a ca…

So, if they are successful and call themselves communist they are not really communist. There are not private banks in China, for just pointing a random fact. I'm not defending the Chinese model, but the diminishing of poor people in the world that you pointed before is mostly due to China.

>>"Like which? I'm not going to call any form of redistribution "socialism", like some people like to do."

I suppose you agree that there are not pure capitalist states. What we see in the world is normally called "mixed economy".

In your opinion, what is this mix composed of?

Anyway, I think we are discussing about semantics.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#105

Post by tincholio »

eighthnate wrote: post #67
em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #5

Chomsky is a great critic of social issues like imperialism, manufactured consent, and state capitalism. However he has been proved devastatingly wrong about Venezuela and as of today won't admit the problems with state socialism. I hope his new students realize this.

> However he has been proved devastatingly wrong about Venezuela and as of today won't admit the problems with state socialism. I hope his new students realize this. Doesn't the problems with state socialism result from being attack by state capitalism which tend to be much stronger nations? The US and europe attacking venezuela and blaming their failures on state socialism is like blaming democracy for ukraine's los…

The situation in Venezuela is not the result of US and European attacks, much as their state propaganda would have you believe. It's the result of 19 years of high corruption, and since the death of Chavez, even worse leadership (Maduro is a moron, plain and simple). They, much like the Kirchner governments in Argentina, and the Mujica government in Uruguay, squandered resources to buy good will, spending money they didn't have (and stealing what money they did have).

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#106

Post by galacticpony2 »

throw_awayfwerq wrote: post #91
galacticpony2 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "massive Western intervention" first. Socialist policy at one point in history ruled half the world's economy. You'd think at that size, if those policies made any sense, it should be able to do fine even without the West.

A significant expenditure for us, an overwhelming one for the other side, of money, arms, and conflict to destroy a region's viability therefore ensuring that any (including capitalism) economic system will fail. The aim is force people to either capitulate to us in the hope we will bring in re-construction money, or terrorize others into falling in line. Read Chomsky, he'll give you references (from the likes of the…

You're talking mostly about military intervention, mostly before socialists got the chance to even implement their policy.

Now, wherever you start, a functioning economic system should be able to lift even a destroyed country up eventually. Just look at what Germany accomplished after WW1 (too bad they went for another war with what they gained).

What about all the Eastern European countries that abandoned socialism without a single bullet fired? What about all the former African socialist countries that few people ever talk about?

> Did you really mean economy or landmass, or population?

I'm talking about roughly half the world (people). I may be off with that figure, but suffice it to say it should be big enough to work autonomously.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#107

Post by kenjackson »

reader5000 wrote: post #97
kenjackson wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky had stated earlier that there are experts to read who cover such things. The kid kept asking variations of the same question. If I were Chomsky I would have been done after a couple of responses.

"These 'experts' agree with me" is not an argument. Indeed, clearly Chomsky did not want to engage the argument so ceasing responding would have been logical.

That's a pretty good argument to me. I defer to Wiles and other mathematicians on FLT. Full stop, that's sufficient to me.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#108

Post by sidlls »

thethirdone wrote: post #13
cooper12 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit that link you shared was so frustrating to read. To think of all the productive things a great intellectual like Chomsky could be doing with his time. Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). He even hints at OP's "intentional ignorance" many times to…

> Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). Chomsky was not prepared to cede any points either. In many places, he does not respond to the probing questions asked of him at all (this is assuming the poster didn't add them in afterwards) instead opting to insult…

The example questions you included are just not even wrong and are themselves loaded with racism. It would take hours or days of remedial education just to get the person asking them up to speed on the history and circumstances around black Americans' experiences to the point where the racism in his questions could be addressed. And that assumes he's honestly curious and not just spouting racism disguised as a question on purpose.

In such a forum there just isn't a point to treat the poster as coming from a place of honest discussion.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#109

Post by jose_zap »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #74
geezerjay wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there some crucial factor in Venezuela's woes which clearly arises from socialism? Ah, the never-ending cycle of socialist revolution, followed by establishing socialism, and finally followed by a string of desperate attempts to pin the effects of socialism because no true socialists would ever do any wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Or the realization that capitalist Venezuela had a worse version of this same crisis. Why are the socialist policies to blame this time?

Worse in what way?

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#110

Post by psyc »

avip wrote: post #30
em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #5

Chomsky is a great critic of social issues like imperialism, manufactured consent, and state capitalism. However he has been proved devastatingly wrong about Venezuela and as of today won't admit the problems with state socialism. I hope his new students realize this.

[EDITed to leave only the point I'm confident about] a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy

This seems to be the theory of multiple intelligences + g-factor denialism + credentialism taken to an absurd extreme. I see this idea used so often in arguments, I think it ought to be a formal fallacy. I'll call it Silo Fallacy for now. The idea that Einstein was as capable of making an argument outside his lane as the person on the street is ridiculous enough, but Chomsky identifies as a "public intellectual" - that is his lane.
Post reply on HN