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ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

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Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#101

Post by [deleted] »

dmitrygr wrote: post #5
Joeri wrote: post #3

So, of I understand this correctly, it's not the message they consider not to be free speech but the (inciting of) violence. I'm all for free speech, but for some messages there's just no context in which they ever become anything but harmful, and maybe dogmatically clinging to free speech isn't the best way to approach things. Then again, it can be a slippery slope towards thought police, so maybe it's best to leave…

maybe it's best to leave the judging of those messages to social pressure. I REALLY hope that that's a joke. Social pressures brought you ACTUAL Nazi Germany and ACTUAL Communist revolutions in multiple countries. Scary...

[deleted]

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#102

Post by [deleted] »

dmitrygr wrote: post #5
Joeri wrote: post #3

So, of I understand this correctly, it's not the message they consider not to be free speech but the (inciting of) violence. I'm all for free speech, but for some messages there's just no context in which they ever become anything but harmful, and maybe dogmatically clinging to free speech isn't the best way to approach things. Then again, it can be a slippery slope towards thought police, so maybe it's best to leave…

maybe it's best to leave the judging of those messages to social pressure. I REALLY hope that that's a joke. Social pressures brought you ACTUAL Nazi Germany and ACTUAL Communist revolutions in multiple countries. Scary...

[deleted]

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#103

Post by selllikesybok »

icu wrote: post #93
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

Exactly. I believe the best way to fight fascism is to have open dialogue and expose repugnant ideas to the court of public opinion. This requires free speech. The initiation of force outside of self defence is amoral.

And in defense of others?

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#104

Post by generic_user »

mschuster91 wrote: post #91
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

There is nothing fascist in beating up Nazis.

Please do not condone the use of violence against (insert bad people) on HN. That is totally beyond any legitimate conversation and is illegal and morally repugnant.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#105

Post by wooter »

Aoyagi wrote: post #85

No violence, or calling for violence is free speech. It would be nice if all sides remembered that.

i am venezuelan. i hope the non-socialist opposition rises up and takes back their country from a violent, oppressive dictatorship with violence if need be. then i hope they use violence to institute justice for those who have committed crimes against their fellow citizens with impunity for a decade. can i fly my Venezuelan flag upside down? shall i be arrested?

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#106

Post by bloobloobloo »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #63
bloobloobloo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neat. Curious to hear your position on waving Communist and Jewish flags.

Is Jewishness "an inherently violent ideology of ethnic cleansing"? For that matter, is Communism? Marxist-Leninist governments don't have a great track record, but there are plenty of individual pacifist hippie commies; the ideology of common ownership of production is not inherently violent and racist like Nazism and the Klan are.

Jewishness is a religion of ethnic nationalism. As in, there's a DNA test to join. Whether they actually practice genocide today depends on what definition you're using, but count up the deaths from pogroms that Jews are responsible for and the toll far exceeds Hitler's.

Are you saying that white ethnic nationalism is inherently violent while Jewish ethnic nationalism is not?

> Marxist-Leninist governments don't have a great track record,

What a coincidence - the supposedly inextricable link between Nazism and violence is also entirely a posteriori. Hitler certainly never mentioned ethnic cleansing in any speech or writings.

> but there are plenty of individual pacifist hippie commies

So intent does matter now, so long as the ideas align with your own? Almost all neo-Nazis deny the Holocaust. To them, the inherent violence (that you say justifies preemptive violence) doesn't even exist.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#107

Post by mschuster91 »

generic_user wrote: post #104
mschuster91 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing fascist in beating up Nazis.

Please do not condone the use of violence against (insert bad people) on HN. That is totally beyond any legitimate conversation and is illegal and morally repugnant.

I just said that there is nothing inherently fascist in beating up Nazis. That is not what you claim I said (that I condone violence).

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#108

Post by ece »

ece wrote: post #24
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #19

If they're using violence then they're already breaking the law, so it's not really a free speech question. This is he ACLU preparing itself not to defend these groups while trying not to loom publically like a hypocrite. Unfortunately free speech and constitutional rights are one of those things where you take the good with the bad.

Or they are just making their position clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action Trump is being sued for inciting violence as well: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudenc... Inciting violence should be a clear line, and I'm glad the ACLU of California is making it clear that it is. As far as past cases go, this doesn't seem to be contradictory or different, but I don't know if…

Context: So the ACLU of VA filed against having the rally moved to a park away from downtown Charlottesville, and the Judge agreed going against the City. Yeah, this probably wasn't the best call in retrospect. Something other ACLU chapters can correct.

https://acluva.org/20108/aclu-of-virginia-response-to-govern...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/opinion/aclu-first-amendm...

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/equality-justice-and-f...

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#109

Post by cc81 »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #71
cc81 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Antifa in the US is the similar to the ones in Sweden they will be initiating violence at protests like this. They are usually very prepared and have a lot of experience how to do it. Using violence to fight fascism is what they do even though they usually use non lethal methods. In Sweden they consist of small autonomous groups that harass nazi sympathizer by vandalizing their homes, putting their address on the…

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

It is not necessarily fascism just because they use violence. They view it as Nazis work towards a a violent society where certain minorities will be oppressed or even killed. So using violence to stop that is warranted just like it is for example warranted for the state to use violence to capture and hold a person that is preparing a terrorist attack.

I disagree of course as even though I really dislike Nazis political violence is something that is really dangerous for our democracy. For example in in town in Sweden one Antifa group jumped and beat up a libertarian politician just because he was seen as promoting politics that was hostile towards workers. Generally that is not something Antifa does but when you start using political violence is easy to use those methods more and more. Or inspire other groups that they should do it as well.

Re: ACLU of California Statement: White Supremacist Violence Is Not Free Speech

#110

Post by selllikesybok »

Banthum wrote: post #32
gkoberger wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post doesn't blacklist any specific organizations, but rather any case that involve violence. The ACLU will likely continue[1] to defend peaceful white supremacists. The ban will go for any situation or organization that involves violence. As for Antifa, I've been unable to find any videos/pictures/unbiased reports that Antifa started any of the violence this past weekend. I don't understand the need to equate t…

>If the KKK didn't exist, Antifa wouldn't exist. Why would you say that? Antifa (and the organizations it descends from) have existed and acted, sometimes violently, in many situations unrelated to the KKK or white supremacists. For example, as we saw in Berkeley not long ago, they'll show up to violently protest Milo Yiannopolous by chasing down people in the street and using sticks to beat them unconscious. (For th…

"Milo is gay and dates a Black man" is a weird thing to say, to defend him from charges of being a Nazi sympathizer.

Or child sexual assault apologist.

I mean, the man has a body of work to be judged by. And he has been.

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