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Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

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Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#101
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as I said on Twitter... If I were in his situation I would keep my mouth shut and would be directing all questions to my lawyer. Otherwise you run the risk of increasing the guilt by association. This kind of stuff can ruin a company. I understand the desire to publicly defend your biz partners, especially if they're your friends. So if you trust your friends enough to put your name and business on the line for t…

I talked to my lawyer and he was fine with me publicly commenting on it, especially since the mainstream media is doing its best to turn this into a huge story. AND I do trust my partners enough to my name and business on the line for them. They are innocent.

There is a huge difference between innocent according to the letter of the law and innocent in a real-life sense.

See the OJ Simpson case for a nice example of the two.

Your friends may be 'innocent' according to the letter of the law - when all is said and done. But meanwhile they look guilty as hell in the eyes of the general public of maybe not scamming half a billions worth of dollars but still a significant amount out of the pockets of hardworking people and corporations.

It may be 'legal' but it certainly isn't 'right', and by associating yourself so strongly with these people you are not helping yourself or hashrocket.

Your lawyer has no stake in your public image but you do, your interests are not aligned and I think you've been given some bad advice.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#102

The facts of the case are being skewed far from reality. It is sad that innocent until proven guilty seems to have been lost in the rumor mill. Even in a court room at times today that seemed to be the case. Mark and Marian provided seed money for Hashrocket and founded the company with Obie. They also own a separate company called United Directories that provides a paper and online business listing service. The comp…

None of this has anything to do with or any impact on Hashrocket.

...a company founded in part by some guys that run what is, at best, an ethically bankrupt company preying on the fears of gullible small-business owners, and at worst, an outright fraud?

Sure, that'll have no impact at all, because people don't care at all whether the consultants they hire have a reputation for dirty business practices...

At the end of a very long and tiring day I have no reason to doubt my friends' character.

That's more disturbing than you probably realize. If Hashrocket and its people refuse to condemn a pretty transparent attempt to trick people out of their money, and instead focus only on the technical legality of it, that says to me that Hashrocket is probably a pretty amoral company.

Don't delude yourself, whether the legal shrapnel hits Mark, Chris and Marian or not, this reflects terribly on Hashrocket because of the poor ethics displayed, and others from the company publicly jumping to their defense and declaring that they've done nothing wrong worsens the perception substantially, it shows us that Hashrocket as a whole sees no ethical problem with running a straight up scam, as long as it's done within the letter of the law.

We would appreciate everyone's support in promoting facts over rumors.

The details may be relevant to the legal situation, but one look at that "advertisement" is all it took for me to throw out any doubt that these guys operate in an ethical void.

If you want to be a just-barely-legal scammer, that's fine, go for it, you might get rich and you might even avoid prison if you're smart enough. Just don't expect your more legitimate businesses to slip the stink of the scammy ones, that's not the way trust works.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talked to my lawyer and he was fine with me publicly commenting on it, especially since the mainstream media is doing its best to turn this into a huge story. AND I do trust my partners enough to my name and business on the line for them. They are innocent.

There is a huge difference between innocent according to the letter of the law and innocent in a real-life sense. See the OJ Simpson case for a nice example of the two. Your friends may be 'innocent' according to the letter of the law - when all is said and done. But meanwhile they look guilty as hell in the eyes of the general public of maybe not scamming half a billions worth of dollars but still a significant amou…

There is a huge difference between innocent according to the letter of the law and innocent in a real-life sense.

Definitely. As a matter of fact, courts in the United States don't even claim to determine innocence; rather they determine guilt. You're either "guilty" or "not guilty" beyond a reasonable doubt of a crime.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#104
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint If the people named in the complaint are executives of Hashrocket, then it has something to do with Hashrocket, however indirectly. 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty In the US criminal justice system, there is a presumption of innocence. That doesn't have much to do with whether one is actually guilty or innocent, in the USA or…

If the people named in the complaint are executives of Hashrocket, then it has something to do with Hashrocket, however indirectly. This seems pretty pedantic. If a VP at Google gets arrested for domestic violence, that hardly means that it "has something to do with Google".

If your Chief Financial Officer is indicted for money laundering, it is a bit of a problem. Even if the charges are related to a completely separate company.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the people named in the complaint are executives of Hashrocket, then it has something to do with Hashrocket, however indirectly. This seems pretty pedantic. If a VP at Google gets arrested for domestic violence, that hardly means that it "has something to do with Google".

If your Chief Financial Officer is indicted for money laundering, it is a bit of a problem. Even if the charges are related to a completely separate company.

It even is a problem if the charges do not stick.

If these guys are as upstanding as Obie suggests they should resign as officers of Hashrocket immediately to avoid tainting hashrocket further.

The damage that has already been done can't be avoided but no need to risk further damage.

Distance is key here. Silent investor, maybe. Officer of the company, no way.

The bad bit here is that bankrolling legit companies like hashrocket from cash made with this scammy 'service' makes the money laundering claims more believable.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#106

I think reading any/all headlines with the mindset of "interesting if it's true" is worthwhile here. The facts need to materialize before declaring fraud or any other type of malice. $425 million makes for a wonderful headline.

Did you see the actual advertisement? Illegal, maybe not...but malicious? Certainly. An advertisement just doesn't come out accidentally looking like it's an invoice from the Yellow Pages (the real ones), that takes effort. The intent is crystal clear, it's not to convince someone that they would gain something from your service, it's to trick them into thinking that they already owe the money. Really, now - can anyo…

An advertisement just doesn't come out accidentally looking like it's an invoice from the Yellow Pages

Of course not. They sent out almost 20 million pieces of email over the years, so what were they doing?

Testing all the f*cking time!

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#107

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

I've personally known them for almost 4 years and they're not crooks. They are important figures in the community and employ a few dozen people here. How is this relevant?

Yeah, Bernie Madoff was respected "in the community" as well. Usually the interface between the dark side and the shiny respectable businesses are folks just like these two. They want the respect and have the charisma and flexible ethics it takes to pull off the double life.

If I were Obie, I would cut the cord with these clowns and work on salvaging hashrocket, even if it means shutting it down and starting again free of financial entanglements with these two.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#108
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but you can check Exibit A at the end of the document embedded in this blog post: http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court... Facts: - They clearly state that it's not a bill/invoice. - The fine print explains that there is no obligation to subscribe. - The fine print explains that they are not affiliated with the actual Yellow Pages. - The fine print font is larger than your typical bank s…

This kind of deceptive business is quite common, and they usually get away with it. It would be naive to think that the Feds have the resources to go after every company that engages in deceptive marketing. There is something more here. They have taken the trouble to get access to bank accounts, this is no minor step. I think they saw enough in those accounts to warrant going after this. While there may well have bee…

After reading the complaint, I think its pretty clear the reason the Feds thought it warranted this much investigation:

"In November 2009, two victims from the Charles Smith/YPDP fraud scheme contacted the United States Attorney's Office in the Northern District of Georgia, indicating that they were still receiving fraudulent Yellow Pages solicitations..."

When they investigated and realized that the solicitation came from a company owned by Charles Smith's brother, I'm sure that was enough to launch a full fledged investigation.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#109
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you phrase this, it seems more of a trade mark violation than anything else.

Just to clarify per what was presented by both the prosecution and the defense in the case the walking fingers logo and yellow pages name are public domain. The various local phone companies engaged in the exact same business model have no more claim to them than anyone else. The only difference being that most of them were given the advantage of government subsidies and a bureaucratic pseudo monopoly blessing.

True, although I'm betting the local phone companies' distribution model more accurately fits the traditional definition of "the Yellow Pages". When people think "Yellow Pages" they think of a free telephone directory distributed to all residences and businesses in the area being advertised in.

According to the complaint, United Directories published 27,626 copies of the book in 2009. Exhibit A of the complaint is an advertisement they sent to a small business in North Las Vegas for the "National Business Edition" of the "Yellow Pages". I don't see how, with 27,626 copies printed, the United Directories' Yellow Pages could possibly meet the traditional definition of "the Yellow Pages" in a "National Business Edition".

So yes, while probably not illegal, its deceptive to use the term "Yellow Pages" when you're just publishing a lower circulation business to business directory.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#110
A summary of how United's "business" works:

1) Design an "order form" that looks deceptively like a renewal form for the regular local yellow pages. The goal is to confuse the recipient that this is a renewal for your local yellow pages that you already subscribe to. Make the return address of your company say "YELLOW PAGES." Take advantage of the fact that the term Yellow Pages and the walking fingers logo are not copyrighted.

2) Have your shady lawyer review your order form and add enough disclaimers to cover your ass and comply with postal regulations. Everything is spelled out in the fine print. This is not a bill. You are ordering a service to be included in our book. We are not affiliated with your local phone company. We are not even going to send this book to anyone except other "subscribers" and a few libraries, etc. We will also put you on a website.

3) Mass mail this "Order Form" to your database of business names across the country. The response rate is small. But as the $300 fee is relatively high and your actual cost is negligible, the payoff is worth it. Note that by ordering you are set up to auto renew your $300 order. The book is published twice a year.

4) Send customers a bill. Charge credit card, get a check. Note that this could be an area where the prosecutor vastly overestimated the dollar amounts involved The total count of incoming mail was for order form replies. A smaller fraction of those recipients would actually have paid the bill which presumably arrived later. -If customer uses a credit card to pay, set up auto renewal, per terms of order form.

5)Have book of names printed. How many to print? Well, you actually aren't obligated to print more than a handful, per the terms of the solicitation. Here is the crucial number to optimize because printing those books actually costs money. You need to print just enough to send to customers to show they got something. Did they send one to each customer? The prosecutor is alleging they did not based on records from the printer. Again though, they never said they would publish any specific amount or that as a subscriber you would get a copy yourself. Assuming they did actually send a book to each subscriber, then the scope of the dollar amounts involved would be much smaller than alleged, though still quite lucrative. So why print and mail books at all? Two reasons. One is to maintain some defensibility to the business in case you ever end up in court (cough.) The second is so you have something to show the smaller subset of your customers who pay but end up complaining. When they try to file a credit card chargeback you can send them a book and prove some service was provided.

Now. Up to this point, we could be within the bounds of legality. But the prosecutor seems to be alleging something more. Specifically that the number of names actually printed in the book was far below the number of paid orders. This would clearly be fraud. But maybe they did print every paid customer's name in the book. Maybe the prosecutor indeed has his accounting wrong and maybe United was hyper careful to keep their records in order. This is where the crux of the case will probably lie. To get access to the books though, the prosecutor had to get the indictment, and that's why he filed with the information he had.

6) Test, optimize,repeat. Mailings aren't cheap. You've got to try to keep that response rate up. Which zip codes do you mail to? Which customers can continue to be charged year after year? Are repeat mailings worth it? How many chargebacks can you handle before your credit card processor dumps you? Some database work is required to keep that mailing list optimal.

7) Build a website so you can provide additional "service" to your customers to increase response rates and cut down on the need to pay for all those expensive printed books. Hell, maybe even creating a web directory for small business might actually provide some value. Start looking around for people who can help you build a website.

8) So now you've got this cash cow, but the problem is it is a deceptive business at best. You want to be a respected member of the community, and flash some cash out on the beach. No one can know what these mailings of yours look like. So you put your PO box in one state under one name, and you put your office in another state where you live under a name that sounds impressive. United Directories. You can tell everyone at cocktail parties that you are the premier publisher of B2B directories for specialized verticals, yada yada.. But that's not enough. You want to be part of something really fun and sexy, so you invest in this new software consultancy. Despite having very little to add to the business other than cash, charisma and perhaps innovative bookkeeping skills, you get to be Chairman and CFO. Finally. Respect.

http://hashrocket.com/people/view/mark-smith/ http://hashrocket.com/people/view/marian-phelan/

9) Everything's cool. Ignore those letters of inquiry from the FTC. You can make this work. Your brother was an idiot and got too sloppy. Maybe it's time for a new Porsche.

10) Somehow despite that fact that you are a total sleazeball, you've managed to fund a great company and stand back enough to avoid destroying it. When the shit hits the fan, it's time to call in some favors.

ego can help build empires but it is often their downfall.

Just my interpretation.

Here's the indictment. Guess I'm good at hacking something.

http://bit.ly/united_filing

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