Live data from Hacker News

Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

nature.com

101–110 of 125 posts

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Polynesian people used binary numbers, but not only binary numbers. The article's title is correct. What's sensationalist about that? Is it an important finding? I think so. It helps shed light on the scientific and technical originality of other cultures. It matters a lot to acknowledge that knowledge does not always flow from west to east or north to south. It helps to rid of the notion of there being 'advanced…

> Some people like me thinks this is a newsworthy discovery. Because you don't understand math. Binary arithmetic is a painfully obvious development. A bored high-schooler predisposed to mathematics would figure it out in an afternoon. And we've documented cultures using mixed base systems in the past. All this would have taken is a single person to say, "Hey, some things are easier if you do it this way" and taught…

How do you know I don't understand math? And if a high schooler could figure this out, then Leibnitz own discussion or contribution to this topic is then meaningless?

The main point is that the finding in the article has cultural significance, rather than purely in terms of mathematics. I think you either don't understand that or are not willing to see that. The article is not trying to elevate a Polynesian people's contribution to mathematics. There is little mathematical significance there as these people from 600 years did not celebrate or promote their number system. Rather, the article explores how mathematical knowledge arises and how it was used. Could there an underlying commonality in the way humans learn and organize knowledge? That's an interesting question to ask and is not diminished - but is in fact supported - by the fact that the same knowledge gets rediscovered in multiple isolated instances.

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#102
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proposed solution - a colour picker of Information quality as vote tool? Factual disputed - Factual accurat? (Red - Black) Information Rich - Information Poor? (Black - Faded Text)

That's what Slashdot did. Didn't help very much in the general case.

I think the Slashdot voting system was excellent and loved the multi-dimension approach. In what way did/do you feel it didn't work.

FWIW Steam has a second voting dimension for humour in users game reviews.

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#103

"Polynesian people used binary numbers 600 years ago" Disgrace to Nature for click bait. The number system might be clever but as described is not binary numbers. Especially the claim in the introduction "Binary arithmetic, the basis of all virtually digital computation today, is usually said to have been invented at the start of the eighteenth century by the German mathematician Gottfried Leibniz." implying Leibnitz…

> ...which lack the simplicity of 2 states...

If you're not working with computers, does this matter?

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#104
post #88

The Polynesian history of the (european) middle ages keeps getting more interesting and mysterious. Evidence for polynesian contact with the Americas is mounting. Regardless, the medieval coonization of all the pacific islands is evidence of seamanship and navigation skills European mariners didn't achieve until well into the age of sail. European sailing was much more trade/cargo oriented & we know a lot less about…

I'm having trouble imagining a society with mathematics (beyond just counting) but not writing. Are there other known examples?

Those don't seem related to me at all. Quipu was an Incan record-keeping system that we don't understand well. Abaci are very ancient calculation devices that don't use writing. The oldest Mesopotamian and Roman versions were just a table with pebbles on it. And that's where we get the word for "calculate".

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#105

"Polynesian people used binary numbers 600 years ago" Disgrace to Nature for click bait. The number system might be clever but as described is not binary numbers. Especially the claim in the introduction "Binary arithmetic, the basis of all virtually digital computation today, is usually said to have been invented at the start of the eighteenth century by the German mathematician Gottfried Leibniz." implying Leibnitz…

> ...which lack the simplicity of 2 states... If you're not working with computers, does this matter?

Also, in terms of computers, binary is only "simple" when you have the ability to create, assemble, and "warehouse" the "mechanics" necessary to represent them.

Babbage arguably didn't use base-10 for his Analytical Engine because it was more complex, but rather that it lended itself to gearing mechanisms (both in being more compact, and somewhat efficient (at least in how Babbage implemented it).

On the other hand, Zuse came up with an ingenious method of representing binary states using simple and efficient (and somewhat compact) sliding rod-like mechanisms in his first computer, the Z1.

Prior to the application of electrical and electronic circuits to computation, coming up with a mechanical system to represent binary (and be able to calculate with useful numbers, given friction and such) wasn't a trivial task. That said, it took a while once potential circuitry came into existence; I've always found it strange (to a certain point) that Babbage didn't use relays and binary (as he was contemporary with Boole, and had to know about his work, as well as relays as used in telegraphy - the only explanation I've been able to surmise is that they were still too early in their development for them to be reliable for calculation, but that's just my reasoned opinion).

Hollerith used electricity for his calculating machines, but they weren't binary-based (being essentially tallying machines they didn't have to be).

Strangely enough, the ENIAC was also a base-10 machine (it's ring counters consisted of 10 flip-flops more or less); again, this might be a reliability issue with the vacuum tubes of the period...

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#106

A couple of Native American tribes used octal because base 8 works for the number of things you can carry between the fingers. Would have made computing a bit simpler if that had been adopted instead of base 10.

Oh wow, I didn't know that. Reminds me of the Aborigines who looked for shapes and figures in the empty space between the stars as opposed to our own ancients who'd rather 'connect the dots'.

Negative space astronomy - interesting...

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having trouble imagining a society with mathematics (beyond just counting) but not writing. Are there other known examples?

Those don't seem related to me at all. Quipu was an Incan record-keeping system that we don't understand well. Abaci are very ancient calculation devices that don't use writing. The oldest Mesopotamian and Roman versions were just a table with pebbles on it. And that's where we get the word for "calculate".

They aren't required, it's certainly possible to have a number system and not a writing system. But for anything where you need to do non-trivial arithmetic or accounting you can't just do all that in your head and memorize the results. You need some way of recording the results in a persistent way, even if it's just tallies carved into a piece of wood. And I imagine any culture that figures out a recording system for numbers would pretty quickly (in historical terms, so like years or decades) develop a writing system. I could be wrong of course, I haven't really formally studied ancient history.

Aside: Is Quipu not a writing system? I thought there was some evidence indicating it was.

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#108

Computers use base two because their most natural unit can occupy one of a couple states: 0 or 1. One, two, base two. Human hands, on the other foot, have ten fingers. Since our favorite mapping between things and integers is finger counting, we naturally end up with more than two states. Zero, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and the fully-extended state, ten. That's eleven states, which is why…

> Computers use base two because their most natural unit can occupy one of a couple states

Not really. That's just the way things worked out, mainly due to how electronics (transistors) work, and with the miniaturization of electronics.

Babbages Analytical Engine was designed as a base-10 machine, mainly because this was the most efficient way to represent things using gears (and with all the friction that entails especially with large numbers - lot's of ingenious mechanism was designed by him to work around this limitation).

Even ENIAC, which used vacuum tubes, was base-10; this had to do with a number of reasons (reliability of vacuum tubes, war rationing issues possibly - at least when it was designed; there are probably other reasons as well).

Other bases have also been tried, but base-2 is default mainly because its easy to create simple circuits (especially miniaturized) to represent such states, and replicate/connect them efficiently (essentially, once you have a NAND or NOR gate represented, with transistors or anything else, you have the basic building block for the rest of a computer).

Other than that, there isn't anything particularly unique in regards to binary representation (base-2) for computation versus other bases.

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...but why did they do it like this? ...because people are smart. People have _always_ been smart, it's one of the defining attributes of humanity. It strikes me oddly (not specifically your comment, but the general color accompanying these kinds of articles)--there's a kind of ground assumption that by looking into the past, one sees nothing but a gradually descending IQ.

> people are smart. People have _always_ been smart I don't disagree, but I think there's more to it than just that. Our raw mental capabilities may have always been the same, but how smart we are also depends on our learning. Learning gives us extra leverage. If you have two smart people and one of them was trapped by themselves all their life on a desert island and the other learnt a lot about (say) maths and scien…

> Our raw mental capabilities may have always been the same, but how smart we are also depends on our learning.

FWIW, I tend to equate "smart" with "cleverness," as a separate measure distinct from "experience," for the same reason you describe--so what I usually go by is something along the lines of:

Cleverness is a measure of "what can you do with what you have," whereas experience is a measure of "what do you have?"

> Over the centuries we've made great gains in mathematical tools, scientific knowledge, in democratizing education and in disseminating knowledge. And this means over the centuries we've (as a species) obtained more leverage that we can apply to our raw mental capabilities, giving us (overall) greater intellectual capabilities.

I don't think we've gained greater intellectual capabilities--our intellectual capabilities are the same, we just operate in a completely different mental environment than our priors did.

Moreover, having a different view of the world allows for different connections to be made, and different potentials to be expressed (irrespective of one's individual level of cleverness).

So, for example, by placing a priority on stories & views that encourage greater investigation of the physical world, we get to where we are today. And we can teach the next generation slightly different stories that optimize for different kinds of usefulness.

To bring it to the HN contingent--if I learn a new programming language, I've gained experience in different ideas and operate in a different mental landscape. But I'm not smarter afterwards, and I wasn't dumber before.

Re: Polynesian people used a kind of binary number system 600 years ago (2013)

#110

A couple of Native American tribes used octal because base 8 works for the number of things you can carry between the fingers. Would have made computing a bit simpler if that had been adopted instead of base 10.

Gotta say, I'd never have thought about space between fingers as the motivation for a base. We must investigate lobsters.

That's also the explanation for base 60
Post reply on HN