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Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#101

Post by djsumdog »

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

I have always refused to sign these. I've been presented with five in my life and in every case they either remove them, or in one case they added an addendum to nullify it.

In most contracts that are for companies that are across states, you'll see this clause marked with a "Not applicable in California."

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#102

Post by etjossem »

esoterica wrote: post #97
etjossem wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advice is not meant for people who are being paid millions of dollars to respect a non-compete they fully understand and consent to.

Change the numbers by a factor of 10 and the point still applies.

I agree. This is aimed at people who:

- Are fairly new to the industry or are otherwise trying to act in a buyer's market for labor,

- Are being offered market-rate or lower with no extra incentives, and

- Have a potential employer trying to foist a noncompete on them for no particular business reason.

Understand the employer's business model and whether noncompete will be a sticking point for them. If it is, then the situation is very different, and you should be asking for lots of money rather than the clause's removal.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#103

Post by djsumdog »

ransom1538 wrote: post #75
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Laughable unenforceable in CA. Basically equivalent to toilet paper for the employer in CA.

Well not just unenforceable, but they are specifically prohibited by law there.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#104

Post by humanrebar »

grecy wrote: post #45
watertom wrote: post #12

Health insurance is also part of the rigged labor market. The only reason big companies offer health insurance is because it limits employees's freedom. It would be easy for the Fortune 100 or 200 in unison agree to eliminate health care and provide a higher salaries. It would make the companies more competitive globally and it would free them from a whole lot of other nonsense, but they don't drop healthcare. The re…

> Healthcare is a racket limiting not just healthcare but freedom The fact that Healthcare is tied to employment is downright shocking to virtually all developed countries.

As an American, I'm routinely disappointed every time they announce "healthcare reform" and this issue isn't even part the conversation. Both major parties have failed on this.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#105

Post by ScottBurson »

esoterica wrote: post #82
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Redlining the non-compete section is not a minor modification. Some companies are very serious about their non-competes. They will pay you millions of dollars to respect them (and sue you for millions of dollars if you don't). If you try and cross out your non compete agreement they will just withdraw your job offer. Non competes aren't intrinsically shady or evil. Some companies have business models that depend very…

First off, noncompete agreements and nondisclosure agreements are separate things. I don't see anyone here arguing that an employer's proprietary IP does not deserve protection.

Secondly, while there do exist well-compensated noncompetes for executives and other high-value employees -- and I don't think anyone here is arguing against those either -- the vast majority are not compensated at all, except that the employee gets the job in the first place.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#106

Post by anarazel »

watertom wrote: post #12

Health insurance is also part of the rigged labor market. The only reason big companies offer health insurance is because it limits employees's freedom. It would be easy for the Fortune 100 or 200 in unison agree to eliminate health care and provide a higher salaries. It would make the companies more competitive globally and it would free them from a whole lot of other nonsense, but they don't drop healthcare. The re…

> The only reason big companies offer health insurance is because it limits employees's freedom.

It's more complicated than that. Offering healthcare in large groups which are likely to be diverse agewise, has considerable benefits for insurers. If people have to privately insure there's a tendency to forgo insurance unless you're in higher risk of being sick. Which increases average costs. Hence the ACA non-insurance tax etc.

> Also if there was universal healthcare it would be easier to start small companies and attract employees

Yea, absolutely. I really miss that after having moved to the US from Germany.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#107

Post by etjossem »

metaphorm wrote: post #100
linkregister wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in the software industry still gets offers like that? Everyone I know gets a DocuSign PDF they sign digitally. There's no opportunity to alter the document. There is basically no non-confrontational way to do this. If a software developer has a competing offer, s…

contract negotiation requires human interaction. the "redline the clauses that are unacceptable to you" statement should be treated as non-literal. you don't literally resubmit a document with struck text. you get on the phone and talk to the hiring manager.

Mhm! This is something any professional should learn to do early on. You can literally print a new document and show them the changes you've made, but you still have to interact with the person hiring you.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#108

Post by dror »

djsumdog wrote: post #101
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

I have always refused to sign these. I've been presented with five in my life and in every case they either remove them, or in one case they added an addendum to nullify it. In most contracts that are for companies that are across states, you'll see this clause marked with a "Not applicable in California."

Trying to get an employee to sign a non-compete in CA is not just a bad idea, it can cause problems for the employer.

http://www.socalinternetlawyer.com/non-compete-agreements-ca...

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#109

Post by ChuckMcM »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #90
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Just be ready for the company to pull the offer. Lots of times it's not even on the principle (we don't actually agree to the changes) but ego ... as in "who does this guy think he is pushing back on this contract that 100s of our employees have signed" If you're not ready for the company to walk away, be careful with this approach.

Exactly right. Large companies are especially prone to this behavior. If you're coming in as a VP or Director its one thing, if you're coming in as a non-executive it is entirely something else.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#110

Post by anarazel »

algesten wrote: post #43

I had a previous employer trying to stop me from working directly for a client. Only, I had brought in the client, I was the only one working for that client and that client didn't want anything to do with the rest of my employer. I felt morally OK with the situation... Only, my contract did have a noncompete. But then, this is Sweden, and noncompete clauses are almost not enforceable by Swedish law. An employer can'…

Don't know about Sweden, but in several countries / states non-competes and non-poaching/solicitation (clients, colleagues) clauses are treated quite differently.
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