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What kind of girl do you think I am?

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Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#101

Post by henrikschroder »

derefr wrote: post #96
henrikschroder wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's no such thing as morals or utility, really Just to counterpoint the frenzy of moral nihilism and relativism I suspect will appear, I respectfully disagree, I'm a moral universalist, i.e. morals do exist, moral judgements can be true or false. But I also realize that this is a question of philosophical faith, and arguing about that is usually pretty futile. :)

A few questions: 1. Given the laws of physics, could you derive your morality? 2. If we didn't exist, and in our place were an alien species that, say, ate their babies[1], would that make the universe contain less utility as a whole? [1] The same story I linked to above: http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ . Who is in the right? Do we have the "moral imperative" to destroy the baby-eaters? Do the thi…

1) No, the only way to get my morality is by asking me. As for whether or not a specific moral judgement is true or not, no, you can't derive that from the laws of physics either. What an incredibly boring universe that would be if that was the case.

2) You're asking me to sum up and compare the values of two complete civilizations? That's a pretty tall order. Also, in one of the alternatives I wouldn't exist, that's a lot less utility right there.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#102

Post by henrikschroder »

ErrantX wrote: post #83
arthurdent wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this fascinating -- your reply and the parent to your reply (@Confusion) actually gave a lot of clarity to what I think on the matter. I'm 5 years out of college and I think my position has changed significantly since then. Until probably a year out of college I only thought very abstractly about questions like this and believed there was a large class of problems for which there is no price. Until a year or s…

but I've since found that the cash price point for sex for most women is not only "no price", but in fact far lower than I would have imagined. I have a theory about this actually. Do you have any specific data r.e. what "prices" were accepted? My theory is that below a certain margin (I never tested this you see) then it becomes a different matter. At , say, £10,000 you are trading your body, it is transaction. You…

I very much doubt that anyone, if offered $100 right here right now would take you up on the offer

Well, he seems like a decent guy...

The price for most men is basically zero.

Oh, right.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#103

Post by derefr »

henrikschroder wrote: post #101
derefr wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few questions: 1. Given the laws of physics, could you derive your morality? 2. If we didn't exist, and in our place were an alien species that, say, ate their babies[1], would that make the universe contain less utility as a whole? [1] The same story I linked to above: http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ . Who is in the right? Do we have the "moral imperative" to destroy the baby-eaters? Do the thi…

1) No, the only way to get my morality is by asking me . As for whether or not a specific moral judgement is true or not, no, you can't derive that from the laws of physics either. What an incredibly boring universe that would be if that was the case. 2) You're asking me to sum up and compare the values of two complete civilizations? That's a pretty tall order. Also, in one of the alternatives I wouldn't exist, that'…

You just said you were a moral universalist—that goes against the concept of there being a "your" morality. Either morals are universal (in which case, you don't need a specific living being to ask in order to figure them out), or they're, at least in some part, subjective. Further, you seem to be explicitly arguing against yourself with the "in one of the alternatives I wouldn't exist" statement—what system of universal morals would privilege your existence over the existence of someone who is better in every way, except for not being you?

What I said above was that "morals or utility" are subjective to an individual—which agrees with your point. I said "and thus don't really exist" because the definitions for epistemic morality or universal utilitarianism require them to be universal—and they're not, so they don't exist as defined. (And a system that accepts subjective morality is usually just called "ethics", by the way.)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#104

Post by count »

by wrote: post #47
Confusion wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the managers at BP that choose to forego certain safety measures completely recognize themselves in this line of reasoning. Which immediately illustrates how dangerously false it is. Companies are amoral (not to be confused with immoral) entities that will not necessarily act in the people's best behavior. If companies act in a morally acceptable way, it is because of the individual employees that together m…

I think it is unlikely it is the "largest ecological disaster in US history". We could compare it to the Dust Bowl http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl , or the logging of old growth forest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_growth_forest#Logging or the draining of the Everglades http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draining_and_development_of_the... and it might not be as large. Consider also the introduction of invasive sp…

None of those happened within the last 2 years, so they don't count.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#105

Post by dkarl »

ErrantX wrote: post #100
dkarl wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say that the whole point was to provoke people to think, and not to glean any information about what they would actually do, I'm fine with that. However, I'm skeptical that women would devote much thought to the imaginary situation that will never happen when they were in a real situation where they were being asked to discuss their sexuality. It's kind of like you've never seen or heard a goat before, so you…

I suspect what you're talking about is something entirely different... because they are just jokey/giggly conversations with no real meaning (there are all sorts of social pressures that set your price, for example). Have you, as an adult, considered your price? My suggestion is few people have.

I've thought about it enough to know that I don't have a single price. The price depends on attraction, how much I like and trust a person, assurances of discretion and safety, etc. My "ideal" price is zero; I sleep with people for free all the time. Above that, it gets complicated. For example, I can think of a certain girl who's extremely unattractive, abrasive, not very bright, always hard up, and likes me a lot. I definitely wouldn't do her for free; I've been tested on that extensively. $500 would be enough. However, she's in debt, she's a friend of some friends, and she can't keep her mouth shut. Everybody would despise me for taking that much money from this girl who's struggling personally and financially. There's no good price for that example, but it's the most likely example I could come up with in real life. If I imagined she was better-off, $500 would be plenty for ninety minutes of work (including drive time, chit-chat, etc.)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#106

Post by ErrantX »

dkarl wrote: post #105
ErrantX wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect what you're talking about is something entirely different... because they are just jokey/giggly conversations with no real meaning (there are all sorts of social pressures that set your price, for example). Have you, as an adult, considered your price? My suggestion is few people have.

I've thought about it enough to know that I don't have a single price. The price depends on attraction, how much I like and trust a person, assurances of discretion and safety, etc. My "ideal" price is zero; I sleep with people for free all the time. Above that, it gets complicated. For example, I can think of a certain girl who's extremely unattractive, abrasive, not very bright, always hard up, and likes me a lot.…

This is an interesting, and IMO uncommon, response. Thanks for the honesty! :)

You're right social constraints are going to modify each condition; many people sleep with others in sympathy, for example.

If I imagined she was better-off, $500 would be plenty for ninety minutes of work (including drive time, chit-chat, etc.)

That's an interesting figure; because it is roughly how much a prostitute would be paid (I use that example only because it is the most readily available price for sex we have). So, possibly, there is an inherent social value for non-free sex we subscribe too.

My "ideal" price is zero; I sleep with people for free all the time

This syncs almost exactly with the response most men gave in our survey

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#107

Post by photon_off »

dkarl wrote: post #87
ErrantX wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price. You say: In reality, most people have made that choice long ago and we know that they have their consequentialist price. And I agree; however I wonder how many people consciously know what their "price" decision they have made. I once actually conducted this experiment with a group of…

Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price. This is ridiculous. The question does make her uncomfortable, but not because of the question itself. She knows she'll sleep with a guy for a million dollars. She's thought about it. She may have even thought about her "price" for letting a man fuck her. The problem is she knows the limits on…

Gosh, I just might be speaking from experience here.

How did you change?

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#108

Post by dkarl »

photon_off wrote: post #107
dkarl wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price. This is ridiculous. The question does make her uncomfortable, but not because of the question itself. She knows she'll sleep with a guy for a million dollars. She's thought about it. She may have even thought about her "price" for letting a man fuck her. The problem is she knows the limits on…

Gosh, I just might be speaking from experience here. How did you change?

Serious question?

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#109

Post by photon_off »

dkarl wrote: post #108
photon_off wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gosh, I just might be speaking from experience here. How did you change?

Serious question?

Yeah. I realized after writing that it might appear to mean "in what ways have you changed" but I really did mean "how did you affect change in your life?"

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#110

Post by bruceboughton »

Shorel wrote: post #81
bruceboughton wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder for what reasons our society will be judged barbaric by our descendants.

Irak, the SUV vehicles, the bullying in schools, people parasiting the welfare system, the predatory banking practices, all those things seem barbaric to me.

Iraq: seems short-sighted to me. We don't tend to judge past civilisations based on one war.

SUVs: maybe, but I would say our continued reliance on oil in general rather than SUVs in particular.

Bullying: could be.

Parasites on the welfare system: not convinced. The fact we have a welfare system will be judged favourably I expect.

Predatory banking practices: pass, not sure.

It's hard to imagine what things it will be--their values may be very different from ours. I'd say oil reliance, over population, the gulf between the rich and the impoverished, but these things are all too obvious. I suspect we'd be surprised by what we're judged badly for.

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