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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#101

Post by aphextron »

tbyehl wrote: post #47

I'm starting to wonder if these articles are driven by a PR firm paid by John Deere's competition. They're always about John Deere and only John Deere. Aside from the Motherboard / Vice article, they never provide any specifics about the maintenance or repair operations that farms are prevented from doing on their own. With the Vice article, 2 of the 3 things they mention are modifying the tractors to operate in ways…

>They're always about John Deere and only John Deere. Aside from the Motherboard / Vice article, they never provide any specifics about the maintenance or repair operations that farms are prevented from doing on their own.

John Deere essentially is the entire market for these machines. Especially in the US.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#102

Post by nickpsecurity »

ebbv wrote: post #53
tbyehl wrote: post #47

I'm starting to wonder if these articles are driven by a PR firm paid by John Deere's competition. They're always about John Deere and only John Deere. Aside from the Motherboard / Vice article, they never provide any specifics about the maintenance or repair operations that farms are prevented from doing on their own. With the Vice article, 2 of the 3 things they mention are modifying the tractors to operate in ways…

I've had the same thought. It's such a niche issue and really it's incredibly standard for any kind of business hardware, which is what tractors are. Also nobody's being forced to buy new tractors, there's tons of old tractors still out and running and working every day. So why do these articles appear with such regularity? (To be clear I think that all software should be open source and vendors should charge for sup…

You sure nobody is being forced to buy new ones? That would be true if new ones offer no competitive advantage. If there is an advantage, then farmers trying to increase output or reduce cost might have to go for new tractors.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#103

Post by throwaway198411 »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

This coolaide youre handing out is delicious

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#104

Post by randomdata »

swanson wrote: post #84

It seems so unbelievable to me that there are enough people that are a) John Deere equipment owners/renters and b) capable of debugging and patching issues in a C++ codebase for these stories to keep appearing. Debates on the virtues of open source aside, is this actually the solution? Or is it a symptom of, say, poor quality software releases? or service visits that are too costly? or overloaded dealers who can't ha…

As a software developer and farmer (and owner of some John Deere equipment), it doesn't seem that unbelievable to me. I know quite a few farmers who also work in tech. The capital intensive nature of the business means that many come from other high paying professions, of which tech jobs tend to be among, to support the habit.

Although from everything I have read on the subject, source code does not really seem to be what people are after. They just want to have equal access to manuals and tools that the authorized dealers have. The guy in the service truck isn't modifying source code either.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#105

Post by nickpsecurity »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Hey, I do high-assurance systems too. High-assurance security where input or environment might be malicious. Even in my constraints, the systems are designed so the parts can be replaced without magic software. The big complaint about JD seems to be them using software constructs to prevent fixing tractors or common extensions. The former should not be hard as JD just has to allow products with certain specs for what will work. The second might require a combination of that with a more manual, operating mode with some automation disabled. Less complexity than what JD is putting in there.

So, Im not buying it even if you worked on the team. They could design it for cheap fixes for parts easily. They could allow more extensions than they let on by turning off some automation. They are instead applying the well-tested concept of lockin both with software and their request to copyright office to make mods illegal. This is to increase profit of their near monopolistic dominance of a lot of the market (esp rural areas).

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#106

Post by TaylorAlexander »

xoa wrote: post #54
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

>I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. Ok, before going a single step farther it has to be prefaced: this entire sentence is utterly non-sensical because "open source" is 100% based upon intellectual property protections provided by governments . That was the whole genius of it from the start, that it ma…

Well, I should say that I respect and appreciate your response. Certainly I can't truly think through the universal problem space, as no one can.

I also feel that at least my government (in the US) is so owned by corporations and the wealthy that it no longer represents my interests, and I tend to reject any solutions that endow in that government certain powers. As such I would disagree with intellectual property on philosophical grounds even if I didn't disagree with it on technical grounds. I simply don't think it's the government's place to attempt to fix markets in this way, and I don't want to be subject to it.

As it is, I see extreme waste in our world from intellectual property laws that ultimately send manufactured goods to the garbage dump sooner than they need be disposed of. Cars that could be repaired, if only an electronic module wasn't subject to monopoly control and unnecessarily high prices. I see poor children unable to access high quality textbooks despite the information being readily copyable. I see developing nations struggling to get on their feet while the rich nations keep their valuable knowledge to themselves.

I don't mind technological means of obfuscation, because those at least can fail. It is only the legal means of obfuscation that prevents us as humans from making every book ever written freely available to all people. I reject the idea that no one would write books in this new future, but I do understand the change would bring about great new problems that need to be solved.

But it is my life goal to find ways to reduce the marginal cost of human survival to zero, so we can care for everyone voluntarily. In order to do that, we absolutely must eliminate artificially inflated costs in that chain. That can be done voluntarily through the creation of an open commons, which I believe is more realistic, or it can be done more powerfully through the weakening and ultimate elimination of IP protection laws.

But you are correct that the real change that is needed is not an end to IP laws, but the stimulation of a culture which values sharing out of a love for one another. I believe that only a culture based on love can truly thrive.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#107

Post by grigjd3 »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

How many lines of code does it take to register as the largest you've dealt with? The largest I dealt with took 45 minutes to grab the repo. I don't state that as a point of honor, more like a point in needless over-effort.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#108

Post by LVB »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

OK I've gotta ask, with such a strong push for "eliminating intellectual property protections", why bother with this footer on your site:

© 2017 Objective Bias. All rights reserved.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#109

Post by nickpsecurity »

userbinator wrote: post #88

Every time I read or hear about new developments in creating safer/more secure software, I am reminded of scenarios like this. Companies could use formally verified crypto and such to provably and completely lock out users by destroying all means of circumvention. In that sense, I think these secure technologies are like nuclear weapons --- extremely powerful, too powerful. Society in general seems to rely on some in…

That first thing you said was what Trusted Computing Group was all about but with whitelisting & chips instead of perfect crypto. Such things were fought well but App Stores succeeded. For "security" reasons, hardware support will show up in products that incidentally reinforce the DRM parts. Good news is vendors keep differentiating on increased control of product & ASIC costs means there's usually debug hardware in it to tap into. ;)

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#110

Post by averagewall »

cookiecaper wrote: post #79
EvanAnderson wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going back to "...limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries" would do wonders to making the situation w/ copyright better.

Yes, reining copyright terms in, putting in strong protections for individuals and hobbyists so that copyright is irrelevant to anyone with less than $1M in revenue, and liberalizing fair use (which unfortunately probably also means seriously overhauling our judicial processes to be not horrendously slow and expensive) would make copyright far more tolerable. IMO the ideal would be something like 10 year copyright te…

Less than $1M? Then my personal business would evaporate because everyone would copy it for free. I provide value to people and they pay me and it supports my family. You're saying I should stop doing that work and become, I don't know, a bricklayer instead? I won't be able to do open source work because that doesn't generate money.
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