How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive • Hacker News Board

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#101

Post by paulddraper » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:30 PM UTC

A few observations as a resident of Utah for the past 6 years

(1) Fantastic for outdoor activities: skiing, mountain biking, hiking, camping. Has some of the most popular national parks in the United States (Arches, Bryce Canyon, Zion). 2/3 of the state is federally preserved.

(2) Software industry is huge. Both historically (Novell, WordPerfect) and nowadays. If I had to find a SE job right now, it would take a week, because I'm picky.

(3) Geographically, most of the population lives in a 60 mile stretch along the Salt Lake Valley in the north. South Utah is warmer, more rural, and attracts retirees.

(4) Cost of living is relatively low. Two years ago I bought an older 5 bed, 3 bath, 2000 sq ft, 2 car garage, 0.19 acre house 10 minutes from downtown Salt Lake for less than $200k. Utah is growing fast, so that is changing a little. Still, my income is 33% less than what I could get in SV, and housing is a fifth the cost.

(5) The culture is hugely influenced by Mormonism (similar to say, South America and Catholicism or the South and Baptists). This means industrious people, larger traditional families, more sobriety, and conservative government.

I've seen people come here and hate it, and others come here and love it. The gist of the article is correct: it depends how much you like the traditional "American dream."

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#102

Post by literallycancer » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #87

m-j-fox wrote: post #86

A religious organization subsumes state roles, providing social services as a way to reinforce social cohesion as well as the power structure in the religious hierarchy. The authorities dictate everything from clothing style to "volunteer" effort. Young men are exploited for their energy and lack of common sense to expand borders. Guys, am I talking about the Latter-Day Saints or ISIS? I'll bet you a beer that Megan…

Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this.

The article reads like a propaganda piece though. Is it still a religious flame war if one of the sides is not religious?

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#103

Post by dang » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:34 PM UTC

m-j-fox wrote: post #97

dang wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this.

Fine. I replaced the word cult with religion. Same difference.

No: you can't slur any particular religion here, nor all religion. This is a fundamental rule on a site that's trying for thoughtful discussion as opposed to internet hell.

The rules here are based on long experience. We know from experience where the snakes and ladders are, and this snake goes all the way down.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#104

Post by dang » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

literallycancer wrote: post #102

dang wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this.

The article reads like a propaganda piece though. Is it still a religious flame war if one of the sides is not religious?

Yes, and said side is invariably more religious than it thinks.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#105

Post by m-j-fox » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #94

m-j-fox wrote: post #86

A religious organization subsumes state roles, providing social services as a way to reinforce social cohesion as well as the power structure in the religious hierarchy. The authorities dictate everything from clothing style to "volunteer" effort. Young men are exploited for their energy and lack of common sense to expand borders. Guys, am I talking about the Latter-Day Saints or ISIS? I'll bet you a beer that Megan…

I'm also ex-mormon, but you seem to be letting your personal issues with the church get the better of you here. Yeah there are absolutely some cultural problems in Utah stemming from the LDS culture, but it is nevertheless true that there are a bunch of positives as well. Your attempted explanation of high social mobility as being merely from economic and population growth is pretty laughable. The US in general usual…

I'm not being negative about the church. I'm being negative about the article.

The correlation between economic growth and social mobility is a fact.

Economies that grow rapidly grow in different ways. Population growth is one. You can also strike oil, win a war, avoid a war, become a trading hub or luck upon a tech boom, among other things. Utah's thing is population growth.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#106

Post by literallycancer » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:39 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #94

m-j-fox wrote: post #86

A religious organization subsumes state roles, providing social services as a way to reinforce social cohesion as well as the power structure in the religious hierarchy. The authorities dictate everything from clothing style to "volunteer" effort. Young men are exploited for their energy and lack of common sense to expand borders. Guys, am I talking about the Latter-Day Saints or ISIS? I'll bet you a beer that Megan…

I'm also ex-mormon, but you seem to be letting your personal issues with the church get the better of you here. Yeah there are absolutely some cultural problems in Utah stemming from the LDS culture, but it is nevertheless true that there are a bunch of positives as well. Your attempted explanation of high social mobility as being merely from economic and population growth is pretty laughable. The US in general usual…

A child in Salt Lake City, on the other hand, has more than a 10.8 percent chance — achingly close to the 11.7 percent found in Denmark..

NY is 10.5%. Can't say I see the differences you mention.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#107

Post by suresk » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

kylesethgray wrote: post #32

jordache wrote: post #16

If the american dream means sucking down some of the worst polluted air in the country, then yes SLC is that realized. http://www.sltrib.com/home/4762483-155/utah-will-welcome-201...

Yupppp. and it seems like the government here doesn't care as long as it brings in profit.

Our governor cheered Trump rolling back anti-pollution laws, because clearly the cause of the nasty inversions we get here is not enough pollution.

Meanwhile, our legislature is focused on the real public health crisis in Utah - porn.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#108

Post by duskwuff » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

api wrote: post #89

tyingq wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity? It's particularly troublesome in Utah because ~60% of the population is Mormon. It's not difficult to imagine a scenario where you lose your job, or an important supplier relationship because you left the church. Yes, it can happen elsewhere, but there aren't too many places in the US where a single religion is so dominant. It doesn't even have to involve leav…

Southern Baptism is that dominant in many parts of the South.

Southern Baptism isn't monolithic in the kind of way that the LDS church is, though. Individual Baptist churches are relatively autonomous, and often differ from each other on details of religious belief or practice.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#109

Post by w1ntermute » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

itchyjunk wrote: post #15

When I was first about to move to Utah, few years ago, lot of people asked me "why?" and told me a lot about a lot of things. Of course, I didn't even know who the Mormons were (I am not from USA originally). Most of what I heard was wrong. I've met Mormons who have asked me where I am from and not only know where that country is but spoke to me in my NATIVE tougue. I was very impressed. The key word in the article i…

> I've met Mormons who have asked me where I am from and not only know where that country is but spoke to me in my NATIVE tougue. I was very impressed.

That's because they send missionaries all over the world to convert people to Mormonism. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they aren't really interested in other countries, languages, or cultures beyond using that knowledge to impose their own culture and religion on others.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#110

Post by cookiecaper » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #76

arconis987 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

I always wonder about the Mormon missionaries. Did you actually convert anyone? Or is that not even the point?

>Did you actually convert anyone? Or is that not even the point?

It does happen, but it's not the point.

A mission is the ideal maturing experience. You get dropped off in what is essentially a random place, anywhere in the world where Mormons are allowed to go (most places). My brothers went to Philly and Auckland. My dad went to Japan. You have to pay a few hundred bucks a month to go, which means you have to save up through your teen years. The missionary program will pay for your apartment and give you a little bit of money for groceries, they'll provide transportation (which is frequently bikes, not cars), and that's it. The rest of the experience is committed to volunteer work; missionaries cannot have other employment.

Once you're there, you're expected to go out and talk to as many people as you can. You spend your time helping people, dedicated to teaching them religion and providing service. Every day. For two years. And you pay for the privilege.

You meet all kinds of people this way, literally anyone who is willing to talk to you. You learn religious fundamentals well and see how it affects peoples' lives. You learn to be persistent and diligent. You learn how to handle rejection; most people don't want to talk to you, and will slam the door in your face. Sometimes people will even spit on you. You develop toughness.

Making a generation of hard-working, committed, and grateful adults, with at least some perspective on something outside of their own comfort zone, is the true point of the missionary program. Utah is an underappreciated testament to how well it works.