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Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

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Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#101

Post by gtaylor »

phil21 wrote: post #85
AlexC04 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugghh... this exactly. I recently turned down a "we will fly you to the west coast" interview with one of the big five because I couldn't be bear the idea of spending weeks preparing for the 4-8 hour day of whiteboard coding (only to not get selected anyways). Spent the time hanging out with my girlfriend instead. Worth every minute.

I think you almost played this right, with one caveat. You should have taken the flight to the west coast and done the interview, with minimal (hour or two) to no prep at all. Why? First, you never know. Maybe they legitimately want your skillset - why fake up some crap you hate for a job you don't need? Second, you'll get practice taking interviews in a very low pressure situation. Worst-case they laugh at you and y…

> You should have taken the flight to the west coast and done the interview, with minimal (hour or two) to no prep at all.

Having done this when I was younger and more foolish, I would not recommend it at all. I felt like I did pretty well overall, but ultimately flubbed a couple of [simple] questions that torpedoed my chances. While things worked out for the best (that company's future looks grim and I'm very happy where I am now), it was a blow to my confidence at the time.

I probably wouldn't have had to have prepared for a month or two to get that offer. A week of glancing at my notes for 30 minutes to an hour a day to refresh would have been sufficient. I think you owe it to yourself and the company who is paying to fly you out to at least brush up a _little_ bit (within reason) beforehand. It's almost like basic hygiene.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#102

Post by mathgenius »

thr0waway1239 wrote: post #58
krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Also, almost certainly, you don't want to hire engineers after they end up working at one of the tech giants, and the more experienced they are the worse. Having had the unfortunate experience of working along side some of the 'veterans' of one of these tech giants, it was a little disconcerting how easily they would form cliques based on perceived 'proven vs unproven' folks - if you hadn't worked at one of the tech…

> naturally you were unproven.

Escape from the cult of google.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#103

Post by holydude »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

"We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...)"

Exactly. Do not be so cocky. This is free market and while you are entitled to your opinion why should a candidate try too hard to get a position that pays less than half of what he will get elsewhere just because his skills are not up to your standards ?

You cannot really assess my skills in an interview the same way I cannot really asses whether it's actually worth taking your offer. Money talks bullshit walks. Eventually at the end of the day all of us unless really financially secure are in it for the money.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#104

Post by maccard »

RamshackleJ wrote: post #68
znq wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. For both of our companies [1][2] we pay a fair salary plus a quarterly bonus on top of that based on what we can give (based on the company's quarterly profit results). We also offer remote retreats (so far Cape Town, Thailand, Martinique, Spain and Skiing in the Alps) and the biggest contributor to everyone's satisfaction is that we let everyone work from where ever they want and as much as they want as l…

I'm always curious about companies who talk about "caring about things other than just money". Maybe I'm missing somethings but if you are a for-profit company by definition you care about money, any claims other wise feel like marketing.

As an employee, I value more than money. I value time off, flexibility, office location, my working environment.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#105

Post by Bahamut »

krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Just to add, it is rare for most companies to be able to compete with the Googles or Facebooks of the world in pure compensation. You have to win these people on other grounds such as increased autonomy, more work flexibility (working from wherever - I have had co-workers who got to spend time working remote from eastern Europe and Nepal at my small company for example), promotions (smaller companies are more able to offer title promotions than big companies for new hires), or other perks such as fantastic environments for employees. These are especially important for retention and hiring better employees than the norm.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#106

Post by 0xCMP »

snarf21 wrote: post #30
ozi wrote: post #11

This article is basically arguing that farm teams should be able to afford pro athletes... Having engineers who "perform in the top 10%" is a nice-to-have, not a requirement for startup success.

I agree but the problem is also the money. A lot of the VCs want to talk about how many ex GOOG and FB engineers who graduated from MIT that they have building their next unicorn. They don't have the same story talking about three state school graduates from Kansas who may be just as talented and have a better product. They also never want to fly to Kansas, like ever. I've lived through this working at a startup in c…

So in this case, location does matter. Even if it's because others are lazy.

/noted

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#107

Post by jfim »

chillydawg wrote: post #42
charleslmunger wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what makes your salary "fair", if it results in an offer that's significantly lower than BigCo? How do you decide what's fair?

Both sides are happy with it?

Yep, exactly that. A while ago I took a consulting gig where the company couldn't afford my rates; we just negotiated working 30 hours instead of 40 at a weekly rate that fit within their budget. They got the expertise they wanted, while I got time on the side to work on other stuff. Win-win.

If you can't match salaries, then you can move other levers (work/life balance, flexibility, etc.) in order to get an agreement that's suitable for both parties. For example, I don't think Google allows for part-time engineers for the majority of the rank and file. For a startup, if they're more concerned about results than butt-in-chair hours, it might work out depending on the role.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#108

Post by jbergens »

likpok wrote: post #36
hashkb wrote: post #8

I don't think the average engineer with 5 years of experience makes 250k; not even in the top 10%. And startups DO pay that much, it's just reserved for powerful exec hires. Just pay more if you want the best engineers. Asking for a world where top talent works for less money is stupid.

The average engineer at google with 5 years of experience makes at least 250K. To put it bluntly: I'm pretty sure the average cash compensation (that is, disregarding RSUs entirely, which is likely at least another 100k/yr) is going to push 200K. The same is substantially true of the main competitors to Google (Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft).

Since the interviews at Google/Amazon/MS is famously hard they don't have the average developers (or shouldn't, then they have done a bad job with the recruitment). THEIR average is not the same as the average in the industry. I do think they are a bit closer to the average than they think but not very close to it.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#109

Post by eldavido »

nicholasjarnold wrote: post #79
jartelt wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I think people are starting to realize that unless you are (a) a founder with 20-30% equity or (b) an early employee at one of the few startups that successfully exits for >$1B without any down rounds, your equity most likely will not be worth more than $100k. If your equity is only a $100k bonus after 7 years, it doesn't make as much sense monetarily to take a pay cut to work at the startup.

My friends and I discuss this all the time. There are always people trying to get us (software engineers) to join various startups around town/country, but the comparatively low salaries coupled with the exceptionally low possibility that any offered/granted equity will be "worth it" some day leads almost all of us to follow more traditional routes with companies that can pay us today, not MAYBE tomorrow.

Devs seem to be realizing this, at least the ones I know (new thing).

Seems the endgame's going to be higher equity grants. If VCs won't fund something unproven at 350/head and devs won't work for peanuts, higher equity grants seem the only option.

I think it'll be just like Hollywood, in that projects are evaluated as much for who they've managed to recruit (e.g. a movie with Brad Pitt is fundable) as on other business fundamentals.

It's striking how much of business views "labor" as ancillary to success. That might be true if you're running a pizza joint but it couldn't be farther from the truth building a software company, or making a movie.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#110

Post by lawnchair_larry »

likpok wrote: post #36
hashkb wrote: post #8

I don't think the average engineer with 5 years of experience makes 250k; not even in the top 10%. And startups DO pay that much, it's just reserved for powerful exec hires. Just pay more if you want the best engineers. Asking for a world where top talent works for less money is stupid.

The average engineer at google with 5 years of experience makes at least 250K. To put it bluntly: I'm pretty sure the average cash compensation (that is, disregarding RSUs entirely, which is likely at least another 100k/yr) is going to push 200K. The same is substantially true of the main competitors to Google (Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft).

No it isn't. Your numbers are high.
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