H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy • Hacker News Board

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#101

Post by WillyOnWheels » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #48

cheriot wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The prime objective for a business is to make money." A business is a way for people to organize and collaborate and it does not absolve those people of their moral and ethical obligations. Individuals are expected to prioritize family, community, country, religion, etc. We need to stop giving people a free pass just because they hide behind articles of incorporation.

What are you going to do, put a business in jail? Hold the people who have made you promises and then failed to follow through responsible. Aka, your politicians. They are your backstop. What makes Goldman, GSK, Haliburton, or any of the other shady, scummy businesses out there responsible to you? They are responsible to the law on the books. Our politicians are supposed to prevent business from screwing our society.…

PG&E was convicted of a felony.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/26/pge-gets-maximum-sente...

They're not supposed to pass the fine to their customers in any way. I don't believe anything.

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#102

Post by jawns » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

problems wrote: post #93

jawns wrote: post #74

Because of the complexity of tax regulations, I don't think coming up with a competing free/open-source/nonprofit tax preparation service is the right answer to this problem. Let's consider the positions of all sides: * The professional tax preparers are worried that they're going to lose business if the government assumes the bulk of the tax preparation work. * We as taxpayers would prefer that the government pre-fi…

> Because of the complexity of tax regulations, I don't think a free/open-source/nonprofit tax preparation system is the right answer to this problem. Maybe our taxes are simpler, but in Canada we have many free tools even endorsed by the government for tax preparation and they're quite popular. Some of them are even offered by Intuit and H&R Block in order to keep people using their software.

Yes, the U.S. has free options, too. In fact, that's what the OP's article focuses on, and I referenced the Free File system in my comment. I didn't mean that no free options should exist.

I mean that coming up with a "disruptive" competitor to the big guys that essentially does what they do, but doesn't charge you, isn't as easy as it seems.

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#103

Post by gech » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #74

Because of the complexity of tax regulations, I don't think coming up with a competing free/open-source/nonprofit tax preparation service is the right answer to this problem. Let's consider the positions of all sides: * The professional tax preparers are worried that they're going to lose business if the government assumes the bulk of the tax preparation work. * We as taxpayers would prefer that the government pre-fi…

>But we also recognize that it's in the government's interest to maximize the tax we pay, and (ideally) it's in the tax preparers' interest to minimize the tax we pay.

I don't buy this at all

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#104

Post by John23832 » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

M_Grey wrote: post #87

John23832 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said we can't condemn the behavior of businesses. The prime objective for a business is to make money. All the ethics, right/wrongs, etc are things that we expect from the people who run those businesses. But the business is there to make money. It is up to the people in charge of making choices for society to make the right choices. It's not the responsibility of the business. They have every right to lobby…

Why is it incumbent on politicians to be moral, "do the right things", but not businesses? That's a laughably arbitrary choice you're making.

Because "morality" is a uniquely human trait, and we elect politicians to enact laws (which are group morality, codified).

We pay businesses for goods and services.

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#105

Post by gech » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #48

cheriot wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The prime objective for a business is to make money." A business is a way for people to organize and collaborate and it does not absolve those people of their moral and ethical obligations. Individuals are expected to prioritize family, community, country, religion, etc. We need to stop giving people a free pass just because they hide behind articles of incorporation.

What are you going to do, put a business in jail? Hold the people who have made you promises and then failed to follow through responsible. Aka, your politicians. They are your backstop. What makes Goldman, GSK, Haliburton, or any of the other shady, scummy businesses out there responsible to you? They are responsible to the law on the books. Our politicians are supposed to prevent business from screwing our society.…

Business lobbies to prevent enforcement... Also don't forget the revolving door, your dichotomy of politicians vs business is paper thin

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#106

Post by M_Grey » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #104

M_Grey wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it incumbent on politicians to be moral, "do the right things", but not businesses? That's a laughably arbitrary choice you're making.

Because "morality" is a uniquely human trait, and we elect politicians to enact laws (which are group morality, codified). We pay businesses for goods and services.

So you're just going to pick and choose as it suits you, and then act baffled when people point out the hypocrisy in that course?

Oh.

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#107

Post by problems » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #102

problems wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because of the complexity of tax regulations, I don't think a free/open-source/nonprofit tax preparation system is the right answer to this problem. Maybe our taxes are simpler, but in Canada we have many free tools even endorsed by the government for tax preparation and they're quite popular. Some of them are even offered by Intuit and H&R Block in order to keep people using their software.

Yes, the U.S. has free options, too. In fact, that's what the OP's article focuses on, and I referenced the Free File system in my comment. I didn't mean that no free options should exist. I mean that coming up with a "disruptive" competitor to the big guys that essentially does what they do, but doesn't charge you, isn't as easy as it seems.

At least in the software case it pretty much is that easy.

It's incredibly straight forward, no special user interface or IO, just basic UI and basic math, just a bit on the tedious side to get all the forms together and up to date.

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#108

Post by kbenson » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #52

atonse wrote: post #24

Could we not start a non-profit that builds software as good as H&R block and allows people to file their own taxes?

A lot of what H&R Block sells is experience in filing taxes, not just knowledge of how to do it. I have complex multi-country taxes to file (Canadian living in Canada, but with some income the IRS says is American income). H&R Block have a guy who has handled this exact kind of tax filing hundreds of times before. If I make any mis-steps in filing, the IRS is going to demand I give them thousands of dollars. I'm not…

Yes. Taxes are complex enough in many situations that it incentivizes paying someone to take that complexity load. The simplest and most sure way to do this is to simplify taxes, but assuming the IRS will be able to to just do it all correctly for you seems naive to me. Depending on your tax situation, there's lots of information the IRS doesn't have (such as almost all deductions you might try). Having the IRS auto-fill forms for you seems like it's putting effort in the wrong place. If they can auto-fill forms for you, your taxes are probably pretty simple, but even then the forms may be complex enough that checking them may require most people use a tax preparer/checker of some sort. The real gains are from simplifying the taxes themselves, not just automating the form entry in the already simple cases. Making taxes simpler reduced the incentives for using a tax preparer, which is the right way to go about this.

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#109

Post by eli » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

AtticusTheGreat wrote: post #60

I file my taxes for free, easily, by printing out the forms at home and doing them by hand on paper. The only cost to me is for the envelopes and postage. I've done some pretty complex filings over the years, and have built up the knowledge I need to do it well. Also, if I make a mistake the government is usually pretty good about letting me know and I either cut them a check for the difference or they cut me a check…

As someone who does their own taxes, aren't you in favor of the IRS pre-filling your forms with the information they already know?

Re: H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy

#110

Post by John23832 » Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #80

maxerickson wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most of this thread is explained by people not realizing you were making a banal first amendment argument.

I think OP is moving the goalposts here. They also say "It's wrong when our elected officials bend to those business interest when it goes against the public interest", which is clearly a moral argument as opposed to a legal one.

I wasn't trying to move the goalposts. I was asked where that right was defined, and so I cited law.