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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

101–110 of 805 posts

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#101

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

The Portland city government is not "the same government" that runs the FBI and NSA.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#102

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

Their own economics will sink them. A lot of their most ardent fans are unscrupulous or shortsighted, so bad press probably won't do the trick.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#103
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what? How does that make any sense? Edit: This comment was written before the parent added the /s tag.

Most of the Uber employees I've interacted with have taken a quite cynical "who gives a fuck - IPO" stance or will rationalize away their behavior to an absurd degree. With this series of leaks from current and former Uber employees, I'm glad to see that there are more ethical people at Uber than I had previously thought.

i think the poster you're responding to didn't realize your first paragraph was sarcasm

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#104
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People generally feel more empowered to call out a company when others do. It's not so much about the media piling on Uber, as employees feeling safe in talking about their company's problems.

I don't think NYTimes need empowerment or to wait for someone to call out Uber to publish this story. I can only guess of a negative PR campaign from an apparent competitor, it's very obvious if you see anonymous medium posts(minus the susan flower's) and the hyperbole created about Travis's video and now this. Like everyone, I want them to pay for the culture they created at their company which resulted in employee…

> I don't think NYTimes need empowerment or to wait for someone to call out Uber to publish this story.

The "people" in question being empowered are not the NYT reporters, they're the other employees that feel free to come forward, respond to requests from proactive reporters, or contact reporters themselves. The idea presented is that after there starts to be negative press, more people come forward, thus more news.

There are many reasons this might be true. A very simple one is that most people may think their concerns are isolated, and not mention it to others enough to learn how endemic they really are. In this case, the employees that have info about this program might not have been happy about it, but might have thought the company was just doing what it had to and were willing to overlook it. Other negative news may change their opinion of the company just enough to put them over the threshold of thinking it should be brought to light. Then again, some employees may have been perfectly fine with this program, but know the public will react negatively, and are using it to punish the company for other misdeeds (such as the reported sexism).

There are many explanations for why people with knowledge of misdeeds may come forward once it's reported. This happens with victims as well (e.g. Bill Cosby). It's easy to think you're the only one when there's no evidence to the contrary.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#106
post #39

This is incredibly awful, but not particularly surprising. One of Paul Graham's most read essays is about the qualities that YC looks for in founders ( http://paulgraham.com/founders.html ). In that essay, he specifically discusses 'Naughtiness' as a positive quality, and how it's one of the most important features of potential founders. The problem is that being clever and hacking around a system for curiosity is go…

> Being willing to break dumb rules to show how pointless they are is an excellent public service. Breaking rules that stand in the way of your profit is completely different, and it's important to call it out.

Depends on whether you view this particular detail as part of providing a service people want (and thus want to pay for), or whether you view it as exclusively in the service of profit (whether it benefits people or not). Ignoring regulations so you can make money by hurting people would be evil. Ignoring regulations so you can help people by providing a service they want (whether you make money doing so or not) is entirely different, and far more reasonable. (It's still a dangerous road to go down, but not universally wrong.)

I've seen what the attempts at "local", "authorized" alternatives look like; they're almost all terrible, and even the ones that work half as well as Lyft or Uber suffer from being non-universal (you need a different service for each location). Look at the various places actually fixing their broken taxi regulations; would they have even considered doing so if the far better alternatives had asked nicely before developing a huge base of interested customers who see how much better the alternative works?

As you said, "break dumb rules to show how pointless they are" can serve as the first step in fixing them.

(For the sake of clarity: Uber has done some truly and unambiguously awful things. This particular story just doesn't seem like one of them.)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#107
Lets not forget that YC has endorsed Uber multiple times in public statements. When YC says "be naughty" this is what they mean.

They'll try to distance themselves from this now, but their statements were "be naughty" while holding up AirBnB and Uber as examples to be proud of.

Take what you will from that.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#108
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't obstruction of justice something that happens after a crime has been committed? If I'm a thief and I do my thieving in the middle of the night when no one is around that's an attempt to hinder discovery but it's not obstruction of justice (I don't think?). Similarly if Uber is operating illegally in a city and they use software to avoid picking up a city official in a sting operation that doesn't sound like obs…

IAAL (but i've only done small amount of criminal work). A crime has been committed, even if they don't pick up the officials. If uber is operating illegally, the drivers that have picked anyone up have committed a crime. Keeping the cars away from the officials trying to ticket and prosecute those drivers is the obstruction. That is, it's not the "avoiding sting" that causes it to be obstruction, because the crime w…

But the city's goal with these sting operations wasn't to catch and prosecute drivers/uber for previous trips. It was to catch them in the act for a single trip and prosecute them for that.

To use another analogy, if I'm a drug dealer and the cops try to buy drugs from me in a sting operation and I somehow figure out that they're cops and walk away before doing a deal is that obstruction of justice? Because I think that's basically what is (was?) happening here.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#109

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

They aren't too big to fail.

What I have noticed is that even people that have concerns about their culture and unethical acts, will often use the service because it's convenient and (for now) cheaper than other alternatives.

As long as Uber is fighting cities (instead of state/federal governments) and continues to have deep pockets... They will be around.

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