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Annotation is now a web standard

hypothes.is

101–110 of 164 posts

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#101
post #74
post #52

So who manages Annotation Central? Disqus? Google? Facebook? The State Administration of Press, Publication, Radio, Film and Television of the People's Republic of China?

What do you need a central entity for?

Both the sending and receiving parties must subscribe to the same annotation service, or the annotation won't be visible. This assumes annotation is not being controlled by the site hosting the web page.

Third-party annotation has been tried, and web site operators hated it. Look up "Third Voice".

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#102
post #69

Reputation management companies are going to love this. Currently, negative information (even if true) isn't as easily discoverable. This ties it all to every one of your pages. With, as far as I can tell, no direct control over moderation. I suspect many website owners are more concerned about legit complaints that aren't easily discovered than they are about spam. And, once reputation mgmt creeps in, that good (but…

Why care? All your points could also be made about Twitter. Avoiding astroturfing is a serious problem, but one that extends way beyond imaginations for this web standard.

If this plays out as outlined, browsers would natively tie the comments to your site. That's the difference.

Mentioned above, like making restaurants display live scrolling Yelp reviews at the front door.

If not, then, perhaps more like Twitter.

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#103
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why care? All your points could also be made about Twitter. Avoiding astroturfing is a serious problem, but one that extends way beyond imaginations for this web standard.

If this plays out as outlined, browsers would natively tie the comments to your site. That's the difference. Mentioned above, like making restaurants display live scrolling Yelp reviews at the front door. If not, then, perhaps more like Twitter.

Only if you opt-in to a widely astroturfed (likely general-interest) public annotations provider. I know I wouldn't. I don't think there's a browser vendor who'd go for this experience as default.

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#104
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this plays out as outlined, browsers would natively tie the comments to your site. That's the difference. Mentioned above, like making restaurants display live scrolling Yelp reviews at the front door. If not, then, perhaps more like Twitter.

Only if you opt-in to a widely astroturfed (likely general-interest) public annotations provider. I know I wouldn't. I don't think there's a browser vendor who'd go for this experience as default.

Perhaps I'm not understanding. Website owners will attempt to AstroTurf whatever annotation system is associated with negative comments on their site.

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a proxy server violate copyright? Maybe I don't understand what exactly Genius is doing, but how is this different from say blocking ad servers in my hosts file?

https://genius.it/11417147/news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1374...

Derivative works of course being protected by fair use.

And if Genius is hosting the page that's annotated, that's one thing. If they're simply proxying it on demand and adding annotations, then I don't see how it violates copyright unless every proxy server violates copyright.

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#106
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you need a central entity for?

Both the sending and receiving parties must subscribe to the same annotation service, or the annotation won't be visible. This assumes annotation is not being controlled by the site hosting the web page. Third-party annotation has been tried, and web site operators hated it. Look up "Third Voice".

I'd say not having a central annotation service that everybody uses, but being able to pick and choose (RSS-feed like?) is quite an important part of it, if you don't want total overload.

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#107
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the sending and receiving parties must subscribe to the same annotation service, or the annotation won't be visible. This assumes annotation is not being controlled by the site hosting the web page. Third-party annotation has been tried, and web site operators hated it. Look up "Third Voice".

I'd say not having a central annotation service that everybody uses, but being able to pick and choose (RSS-feed like?) is quite an important part of it, if you don't want total overload.

There's a network effect. You have to be on the same annotation service as the people whose annotations you want to see. This leads to centralization.

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#108
I've been wanting to provide a high-fidelity many-to-many commenting system inside of a text editor or browser since I was in college. My thought was that if you could annotate something as complex as Shakespeare:

http://imgur.com/FgsyAco

then you could annotate legal documents, code, and other high-density texts as well.

I've long felt that existing solutions fall down in a few ways:

1. UX -- this is a HARD UX problem because you are potentially managing a lot of information on screen at once. Anybody staring at a blizzard of comments in Word or Acrobat knows how bad this can get.

2. One-to-one -- Most existing exegesis solutions like genius.com only let you mark of one portion of text for threaded commentary, which is not ideal because complex text like the above example can have multiple patterns working in it at the same time:

http://imgur.com/x6BKKQW (a crude attempt to map assonance and consonance)

Really, what a robust commentary system needs is to map many comments to many units of text, so that the same portion of text can be annotated multiply (as this solution attempts) but also so that the same comment can be used to describe multiple portions of text as well.

3. Relationships between comments -- It's great that this solution gives threaded comments as a first-class feature, but you also want to be able to group comments together in arbitrary ways and be able to show and hide them. In my examples above, there are two systems at work: the ideational similarities between words, and the patterns of assonance / consonance. You could also add additional systems on top of this: glossing what words or phrases mean (and in Shakespeare, these are often multiple), or providing meta-commentary on textual content relative to other content, or even social commentary on the commentaries. You need a way to manage hierarchies or groups of content to do this effectively. No existing solution that I am aware of attempts this.

I literally just hired somebody yesterday to start work on a text editor that attempts to resolve some of this, but it's an exceedingly hard problem to solve with technology.

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#109

Is anyone using these? The blog post is put out by a company I've never heard of, and the credits listed on it include nobody who works on a browser, no major websites, and no comment-widget company. Historically, web standards where a committee gets together and decides how a feature is going to look without the buy-in of users or browser vendors have a very poor track record of adoption. The way actually-successful…

> The blog post is put out by a company I've never heard of, and the credits listed on it include nobody who works on a browser…

By the way, the Genius team is backed by Marc Andreessen. While Genius and Hypothesis aren't formally related, the two annotation products are very similar just for different audiences. Tim Berners-Lee is even featured in the video at the end of the post.

This is kind of a crazy comment to have to make when the two biggest creators of the web browser support annotations. People who've worked on browsers absolutely have a vested interest in the web annotation standard.

https://hypothes.is/blog/a-letter-to-marc-andreessen-and-rap...

Re: Annotation is now a web standard

#110
post #84

A lot of startups/websites exist solely and sometimes to a large extend because there is no standard annotation capability on the web, e.g. Stumbleupon, Reddit, Hackernews! (Medium highlights), comment sections on any page (even NY Times articles!) Sites not having direct control over which comments should stay and surface to the top and which ones should go is going to be huge. In my opinion this will open up the we…

Or maybe 4chan will have fun with it for a while, and then everyone else will decide it's a cesspit and turn it off? I don't see anything in the proposal about how comments get moderated. In the meantime, we can keep using Hacker News.

Should the author have the privelage of moderating their comments? They could shave off all the comments that threaten the authors argument. Suddenly its become a single sided debate.
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