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In Support of Free Speech

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101–110 of 119 posts

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#101
post #60

The decision to continue to work with Breitbart aside, this post shows the failure of civics education in this country. > Products are a form of speech, and free speech must be fiercely protected, even if we disagree with some of the voices. The right to free speech that's protected in our constitution refers to speech being protected from the government . Nowhere in our constitution does it state that other individu…

The concept of freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction. You're of the misunderstanding that the First Amendment and the last ~300 years of judicial precedent somehow transcend this concept (QED: it doesn't). Not once does Lütke mention the First Amendment. You did that all on your own. More to the point, he isn't…

> freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship

Yes!

> or societal sanction

No! This is absolutely not the case. If you call someone the N-word, you should expect to be treated as a racist by society. Call someone a fag and expect to be treated as a homophobe. Freedom of speech does not guarantee the right to speech without any consequence. The government can imprison, tax and has many other abilities not granted to Shopify. For that reason, dissenting speech must be protected from them in a way that's fundamentally different than the way it must be protected from Shopify. But non-governmental actors absolutely do have a role in guiding speech to be more civil and create the society we want to live in. We do that through social pressure rather than with force majeur. It's that crucial difference that requires protection from the government but not from Shopify.

> Not once does Lütke mention the First Amendment

Except that he does. He quotes the ACLU talking about speech protected by the first amendment:

  ... Constitutional rights must apply to even the most unpopular groups
  if they’re going to be preserved for everyone.

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#102
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the gas station example - I recently recall wedding stores being unwilling to sell items to LGBT couples.

Not the sharpest comparison since the LGBT community at large has never called for any ethnic cleansings as far as I'm aware

That's kind of my point. That's much more unwarranted than dropping Breitbart as a customer yet still happened.

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#103
post #39

"Are there limits to what you would host?" "Instead of imposing our own morality on the platform, we defer to the law. All products must be legal in the jurisdiction of the business." Compare that to the terms of service: "We may, but have no obligation to, remove Store Content and Accounts containing content that we determine in our sole discretion are unlawful, offensive, threatening, libelous, defamatory, pornogra…

The extra legalese is usually a CYA. They can reserve the right to remove "offensive" content without necessarily exercising that right.

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#104
post #9

Just dont get upset when people refuse to use shopify in protest.

This actually increases my desire to use Shopify, really. Not because I like Breitbart (I consider it to be drivel like most other news sites), but rather because if even they won't be booted off Shopify, it's highly unlikely that I would be. Shopify therefore looks like a very reliable and safe choice regardless of political viewpoints.

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#105
post #45

What do people think about banks refusing to service marijuana or adult industry customers?

It depends on the laws and regulations of the relevant jurisdictions. If it's not illegal, then it shouldn't be restricted, IMO, but that's ultimately up to the bank in question.

Pragmatically speaking, if both are legal, then both provide a relatively safe return on any investment made; both are very big (and growing) industries, for better or worse.

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#106

Refusing to voluntarily engage in commerce is hardly censorship. All this post is saying is "We're totally fine with neo-Nazis, so long as we make some money from them." A principled boycott is not censorship, it is further free expression. Shame on shopify for abandoning principles in favor of profit.

Abandoning principles?. Why is it unethical to trade with neo-Nazis?

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#107
post #39

"Are there limits to what you would host?" "Instead of imposing our own morality on the platform, we defer to the law. All products must be legal in the jurisdiction of the business." Compare that to the terms of service: "We may, but have no obligation to, remove Store Content and Accounts containing content that we determine in our sole discretion are unlawful, offensive, threatening, libelous, defamatory, pornogra…

The extra legalese is usually a CYA. They can reserve the right to remove "offensive" content without necessarily exercising that right.

Well sure. But if your policy really is "anything that's legal" then there's no need to CYA. The only reason you'd have that clause in the first place is if you thought you might want to remove legal but offensive content.

Imagine if someone made a big deal about being inclusive of all races, but their TOS said, "We reserve the right to kick out black people." Nothing says they have to exercise that right....

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#108
post #22
post #3

Good. I've never read a Breitbart article, but there are few things they could say that I would find more distasteful than censorship. Interesting editorializing of the headline on this post.

Refusing to do business with someone is not censorship.

I think you should be able to do business with whomever you want, but there are laws against this.

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#109
post #26

I'm so glad shopify has the guts to stand up for white nationalists and calls for American ethnic cleansing. How brave of them to hold strong against those whiny liberals who have gone too far calling for the shutdown of hateful rhetoric against non whites and women. Free speech means that you can call for the violent oppression of an group, and still be entitled to turn a profit on it. Truly American values.

It's an abuse of HN to use it primarily for political or ideological battle. Since you've ignored our repeated requests to stop doing that, we've banned your account.

HN exists for the gratification of intellectual curiosity. We can't be both that and a political battlefield, much as one can't go hiking in a forest fire: the one destroys the other. Occasional flareups are unavoidable, but when an account begins to use HN primarily for political battle, that clearly violates the intended use of the site.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: In Support of Free Speech

#110
post #26

I'm so glad shopify has the guts to stand up for white nationalists and calls for American ethnic cleansing. How brave of them to hold strong against those whiny liberals who have gone too far calling for the shutdown of hateful rhetoric against non whites and women. Free speech means that you can call for the violent oppression of an group, and still be entitled to turn a profit on it. Truly American values.

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