The next big blue collar job is coding • Hacker News Board

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#101

Post by Arizhel » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #92

srslack wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>reliable source that explains it You're going to have to elaborate on "reliable source." From an NPR interview concerning a report from the Association of University Women, a feminist organization: "After controlling for several relevant factors, they found that the wage gap narrowed to only 6.6 cents." http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk/2012/10/24/28990/study-... The study: http://www.aauw.org/GraduatetoaPayGap/u…

Is that copied and pasted from somewhere? consad.com is a parked domain at GoDaddy (or gives me a 404 testing from another route). That and the exaggerated, sarcastic tone make me wonder whether I'm going to gain much from reading and responding to that comment, and whether it's an attempt to inform or attack. Life is too short. For those interested in learning about the subject, here's a passable summary, though it…

>For example, the pay gap in Hollywood between actors and actresses is well publicized (though not mentioned in the article).

Yeah, but who cares? I really don't. I honestly, truly don't care if female millionaires are paid less than male millionaires. Cry me a river.

I only care about middle-class people and below, not a few ultra-lucky rich people. If some single mom is struggling to pay her rent on a modest apartment and has some crappy old car that's in danger of giving her unaffordable repair bills and she's getting paid less than her male coworkers, that angers me. But spoiled Hollywood actresses? Please.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#102

Post by flukus » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 10:55 PM UTC

dozzie wrote: post #79

flukus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plumber can't execute change-washer.sh and have his job done in 1 second. The plumber can't use "down time" to proactively solve future issues. A sysadmin does have a higher level of abstraction available to them.

> The plumber can't use "down time" to proactively solve future issues. Oh, but he surely can, replacing a valve that is known for going to break in near future for instance, or putting a different one with additional safety features. > A sysadmin does have a higher level of abstraction available to them. Mainly because sysadmin works with immaterial things (software) (and some of sysadmins also work with hardware).…

> Oh, but he surely can, replacing a valve that is known for going to break in near future for instance, or putting a different one with additional safety features.

Doing that change will cause downtime. The sysadmin can write a script to make the change and avoid the downtime.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#103

Post by flukus » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 11:04 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #9

There has been a "blue collar" coder for a long time, maybe always. It's all about "sandboxes", by which I mean the area the programmer is concerned with. If the sandbox of a programmer's job is in one language, say Java, and it's only writing unit tests to test other people's code, the programmer is very limited in what they are responsible for, and the cost of their mistakes is very low. Yet just writing unit tests…

> If the sandbox of a programmer's job is in one language, say Java, and it's only writing unit tests to test other people's code, the programmer is very limited in what they are responsible for, and the cost of their mistakes is very low. Yet just writing unit tests that cover code, even if they aren't brilliant tests, certainly has value.

Not disagreeing with your overall point, put I'm fixing some terrible unit tests (that aren't really unit tests) right now that do nothing but add negative value. So many otherwise experienced programmers write terrible unit tests and/or untestable code that I don't think it could ever be silo'd like that.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#104

Post by tropo » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 1:41 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #9

There has been a "blue collar" coder for a long time, maybe always. It's all about "sandboxes", by which I mean the area the programmer is concerned with. If the sandbox of a programmer's job is in one language, say Java, and it's only writing unit tests to test other people's code, the programmer is very limited in what they are responsible for, and the cost of their mistakes is very low. Yet just writing unit tests…

Those who "focused in some super-niche proprietary tech for many years and are unfamiliar with the latest trends" have a level of talent that may be difficult to measure. It probably isn't low though, since they lasted years.

Nearly nobody will hire them, because employers like you are expecting 100% domain knowledge on day 1. Because you are completely unwilling to give a person a chance to learn on the job, you are missing out on employees that tend to be low-cost and loyal. There is a cost to having employees regularly quit, and you are paying it because you refuse the sort who stick around.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#105

Post by tropo » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 1:57 AM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #50

A presumption of this article, and many like it, is a backwards-looking and somewhat elitist view of the economy and the workforce. Consider these quotes: * "What if we regarded code not as a high-stakes, sexy affair, but the equivalent of skilled work at a Chrysler plant?" * "teachers and businesses would spend less time urging kids to do expensive four-year computer-science degrees and instead introduce more code…

College is for the elite because it is an arms race. We use college for class signaling.

If a degree is free, then employers will demand a master's degree. (already starting) If we make that free, employers will demand a doctorate. If we make that free, employers will demand post-doctoral work.

Meanwhile, the actual education obtained for any given level declines. This is a race to the bottom because the customers demand it. Colleges are now teaching things that were once required for entering high school, particularly writing.

For an individual, it is usually beneficial to participate in the arms race. College expenses rise to take much of the benefit, but there is some benefit left for the student. For society, anything that encourages the arms race is harmful. An increasingly large portion of a person's life is spent being unproductive.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#106

Post by thehardsphere » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 2:17 AM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #89

thehardsphere wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The idea that 'college isn't for everyone' is elitist. It really means that 'college isn't for the children of the working class, only those of the wealthy'. I actually think you're right that it's elitist, but I don't think this "college is not for everyone" attitude is about money, but about intelligence and personality characteristics. These things happen to also correlate with "wealthy," for values of wealthy ab…

> this "college is not for everyone" attitude is about money, but about intelligence and personality characteristics. These things happen to also correlate with "wealthy," You're claim is that children born into wealthy families are naturally more intelligent? And that 70% of people in state universities flunk out, and they flunk out due to marijuana usage? Hmmm .... I think we'd need to see some basis for these theo…

No, I'm claiming that intelligent, conscientious people are more likely to be wealthy. There are many studies that support this.

I'm also sharing an anecdote that many people who have the opportunity and resources to go to college, waste it. That's an anecdote from my own experience of going to a state university. The point of sharing it wasn't to tar everybody who goes to state universities, but to point out that there are people who will waste opportunities that they're given.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#107

Post by braveo » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 2:19 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #95

braveo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real value of good code is way, way less than developers would like to believe Soooo much this. But it's also important to note the difference between code and system design. The vast majority of code that's written is solving problems where system design doesn't tend to make a huge amount of difference. It's only when you get to a certain scale and/or in certain domains that the system design starts to matter,…

Then with shit code and even more for shit system design you just spend far longer maintaining the technical debt rather than adding genuine value. Every feature takes 4 times longer to implement because of it. It costs more, and ships later. And there are always bugs to fix. Its obvious to anyone capable of writing decent code that it does have value.

"shit code" is in the vast minority of code written, most of it ranges from merely crappy to so beautiful you'd auction off your own mother just to bask in its presence a little longer

The reason architecture starts mattering is because you can do things like put that "shit code" behind an interface/microservice/whathaveyou and then the rest of the system just doesn't care.

This is why code itself isn't particularly valuable in the way you seem to be implying. It isn't without value, but while software is valuable, it's rare for specific code to be where that value is at.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#108

Post by SturgeonsLaw » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 2:55 PM UTC

singularity2001 wrote: post #71

gtvwill wrote: post #17

Ok this article actually gripes me quite a lot due to its wrongful interpretation of what a blue and white collar job is. TBH I read it whilst I was on the toilet so I'm going to go as far as to say it gave me the shits. Unless we are going to start referring to or reclassifying typing on a keyboard for 8 hours a day as strenuous physical activity (which it is not), coding will never be a blue collar job. Blue collar…

what really pissed you off is the pejorative stigma of "blue-collar jobs". there is a difference between the art of coding and operating an elevator

At the risk of sounding Marxist, there's only really two classes. If you have to trade your time and labour for money, you're working class. If your money makes money and you can live off that, you're capitalist class.

We stratify working class into different sub groups (blue collar, white collar, professional, middle class, working poor, etc) to develop a sense of hierarchy, and it really rubs people the wrong way to be told that they're no better (or worse!) than the guy sweeping the floors.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#109

Post by colefichter » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 6:23 PM UTC

cableshaft wrote: post #100

colefichter wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So being able to get through life with your basic needs and propagate is the definition of success now? For a lot of people... yeah, that's true. When people say that HN is a bubble, they mean it. I don't know anything about your background, but have any of your friends ever said something like "my biggest dream in life is to be a mom"? Here in Canada, I've heard that from several friends. For a lot of us on HN tha…

I'm from the Midwestern US, so yeah, I've certainly heard that quite a few times (dated a couple women like that, even). But I never saw that as something unachievable by most people, which I know isn't the strict definition of success, but to me, success is when you've managed to do something that a lot of people can't do. A lot of people won't reach it, or won't bother to try to achieve it, but you have. Winning th…

> to me, success is when you've managed to do something that a lot of people can't do.

> I just have a different perception on what it means to be successful.

Yep, I think these two things are the crux of the issue. The first is probably quite different to how lots of people view things. It can be really painful to evaluate your own worth/success relatively against others.

For many, I think, success is much less a relative issue than an absolute issue. Most who desire to be happy, loved, materially comfortable, and parenting probably do view success as achieving those things. Besides, if those things are what your peers aspire to as well, then you might even be doing better, relative to them, anyway!

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#110

Post by hackuser » Sun, Feb 12, 2017, 6:41 AM UTC

thehardsphere wrote: post #106

hackuser wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this "college is not for everyone" attitude is about money, but about intelligence and personality characteristics. These things happen to also correlate with "wealthy," You're claim is that children born into wealthy families are naturally more intelligent? And that 70% of people in state universities flunk out, and they flunk out due to marijuana usage? Hmmm .... I think we'd need to see some basis for these theo…

No, I'm claiming that intelligent, conscientious people are more likely to be wealthy. There are many studies that support this. I'm also sharing an anecdote that many people who have the opportunity and resources to go to college, waste it. That's an anecdote from my own experience of going to a state university. The point of sharing it wasn't to tar everybody who goes to state universities, but to point out that th…

> intelligent, conscientious people are more likely to be wealthy

We're talking about kids; their access to wealth depends almost entirely on their parents, not the child's own intelligence and conscientiousness.