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During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#101

Post by eternalban »

finid wrote: post #68
knz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware that the US/NATO was involved in the Arab Spring. But again, I think the reality was far more complex - Mohamed Bouazizi didn't immolate himself because the CIA/MI6 told him to. There were videos from the time of people marching and being shot by their governments - those governments could have chosen to bring meaningful reform but instead chose violence. Likewise with Assad in Syria - the CIA/MI6 aren't ma…

Since the so-called Arab Spring started in Tunisia, you have to ask yourself why we didn't push for "regime change" in that country. The demonstrations in Syria were not spontaneous. They were engineered. If you have time, read the email exchanges between the US ambassador to Syria and H. Clinton. Regarding Iran and Russia playing "the great game", they're supporting the legitimate govt of that country. Without their…

Considering that Iran has been, without the least exaggeration, in active cross-hair of the "great game" of the Anglo vs Russ for the past 150 years, saying that Iran is playing the "great game" is rather bizzare.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#102

Post by rpeden »

krapp wrote: post #81
KirinDave wrote: post #75

I like this article because it reminds us that "whiteness" is not actually a strictly racial identity. There are numerous factors that make someone "white" in America, which makes them acceptable to white nationalists. These purity rules can change over time to represent what's politically expedient. Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern Ame…

>Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern America)were once not only considered not "white", but were demonized even as much as other races that Europe has traditionally looked down on. This was parodied in the movie Blazing Saddles, set in the American wild west, with a quote that I'd be [edit: apparently not] banned for repeating verbatim.

Another reply to your post added the quote.

I sincerely hope that posting such a quote isn't cause for a ban - since it's pulled directly from the film, and does a good job of emphasizing the point you're trying to make.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#103

Post by mgbmtl »

paulddraper wrote: post #56
ctrl-j wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. Neither do Muslims? I mean, show me the statistics that show that they have a higher terrorism rate than other groups. The IRA, the extremist christian groups, and the mentally ill all do a lot of damage as well, but they're not being banned from the USA. I think Muslims get targeted by the media because th…

Overall numbers are hard to come by, especially for smallish incidents, but of the 23 acts of terrorism in 2016 killing a hundred or more people, 100% of them were done by Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in... > they're not being banned from the USA Were there countries with huge numbers of extremely violent mentally ill people, I have no doubt the US would limit or halt immigration…

I strongly recommend watching the documentary "Hypernormalisation" by Adam Curtis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation).

The main focus of the documentary compares the styles of Trump and Vladimir Poutine, but has interesting recap/point of view on the evolution of terrorism in the middle east.

(his previous documentary, Bitter Lake, was on Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia, also interesting, but the visual/narrative style kind of annoyed me)

I think it's easily misleading to look at these things only by the numbers. We need a better understanding of the background. Numbers can support your argument/context, but you need a better argument.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#104

Post by paulddraper »

yesbabyyes wrote: post #57
paulddraper wrote: post #33

Nice thoughts, but none of the groups you mentioned in your analogy have the worldwide penchant for terrorism that Muslim groups do. Berlin, Brussels, New York, Israel, Orlando, etc. Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. I understand the tiny minority is the problem; just don't think your analogy to these other groups is an apt one.

I'm from Sweden, we actually have quite the reputation for slaughter: - The case has been made that the Gothic tribe who sacked Rome originated from Sweden - The Vikings pillaged and slaughtered in Russia, Britain, Continental Europe, the Mediterranean, even as far as Newfoundland - During the Swedish Empire, Sweden colonized and occupied Finland and the Baltic states, and waged war on Continental Europe, conquering…

In the centuries since, you're failing to live up to your reputation, Sweden.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#105

Post by paulddraper »

legodt wrote: post #47
paulddraper wrote: post #33

Nice thoughts, but none of the groups you mentioned in your analogy have the worldwide penchant for terrorism that Muslim groups do. Berlin, Brussels, New York, Israel, Orlando, etc. Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. I understand the tiny minority is the problem; just don't think your analogy to these other groups is an apt one.

Fun fact: the vast majority of North American terrorism is committed by white men. No other group since 9/11 has contributed more to terror than disgruntled white dudes in North America. Refugees are trying to escspe the same horrors you are describing. The situation is similar to the US turning away Jews under the banner of "America First" during WW2 because they feared Nazis sneaking in with the Jews. The "safe" co…

> No other group since 9/11

So no other group since the largest terrorist act in the history of the United States?

If that's not a convenient choice in timing, I don't know what is.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#106

Post by conistonwater »

ericd wrote: post #73
conistonwater wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how well it works on Trump supporters, but there's something that bugs me about this argument. It seems to take a moral issue (do you treat other people well?), and replace it with an economic issue (do you know of inventions, food, or some economic benefit from those people?). I feel like it's a racing certainty that many Italian-Americans lived ordinary lives, and didn't do anything out of the ordinary…

If one can't successfully appeal to someone's sense of morality (perhaps because they have different morals), one can try to appeal to their sense of self interest.

This one, uh, I point-blank refuse to believe. The moral principles about how you can treat other people are so widespread and uniform (made it into the bloody bible, even; the only bit that everybody knows from that MLK speech is about this), that you're gonna have some serious convincing to do, before I believe that people "have different morals". It seems more believable that people have just the same morals they always did, but are applying them very selectively without proper justification (as it always is with prejudice).

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#107

Post by jcomis »

krapp wrote: post #81
KirinDave wrote: post #75

I like this article because it reminds us that "whiteness" is not actually a strictly racial identity. There are numerous factors that make someone "white" in America, which makes them acceptable to white nationalists. These purity rules can change over time to represent what's politically expedient. Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern Ame…

>Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern America)were once not only considered not "white", but were demonized even as much as other races that Europe has traditionally looked down on. This was parodied in the movie Blazing Saddles, set in the American wild west, with a quote that I'd be [edit: apparently not] banned for repeating verbatim.

There's also a scene in The Sopranos that covers this. Tony is talking with his therapist and they basically come to the conclusion that he thinks Italians aren't white and won't ever be truly accepted by what I think he called "Mayonnaise Americans" (basically WASPs). Growing up in a large Italian family there was definitely some family members that felt this way as well, particularly the older ones.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#108

Post by Red_Tarsius »

KirinDave wrote: post #75

I like this article because it reminds us that "whiteness" is not actually a strictly racial identity. There are numerous factors that make someone "white" in America, which makes them acceptable to white nationalists. These purity rules can change over time to represent what's politically expedient. Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern Ame…

As a Italian, I surely feel demonized by the Guardian style of 'journalism' and American leftists. Too bad no one is calling them out. I guess Fascist tendencies too are acknowledged out of convenience, not rationality.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#109

Post by badmadrad »

Using this as a criticism of Trump's travel ban is a false equivalency.

There have literally been a rash of terrorist attacks in Europe perpetrated by radicalized Syrians, Somalians, and Iranians. Not to mention the knife attack from Somalian refugee (who was getting a free ride) at Ohio State.

Read through these lists and tell me there is nothing to be worried about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in...

Yes, being a victim of a terrorist attack is as likely as getting hit by lightning but that doesn't mean you should wrap yourself in aluminum foil and go outside in a thunderstorm. You usually protect yourself and take shelter.

Its ok to protect yourself when there is a conceivable threat.

That being said, I do feel the travel ban was hastily rolled out without much coordination and caused some people to be detained that shouldn't have been but to completely disregard the principle of it as misguided or racist in some way is just disregarding the truth of the state of world.

In fact, many pundits are saying this going to create more propaganda or create more terrorists.

First, I disagree with notion that we should care about ISIS's propaganda. People don't become terrorists because a country bans them. They become terrorists when foreign power drops bombs and puts boots on the ground in a country they feel is theirs. Others become terrorists because they are forced to or naive minded people looking for some purpose in life.

If all we care about is their propaganda we will be frozen to inaction because anything you do can be spun against you.

Furthermore, the things ISIS hates the most is the cultural imperialism imposed on them. They don't like western values and don't want to adopt any western ideas since they are a threat to the foundations of their belief system. A threat they are willing to kill for. So really you are damned if you do and damned if you don't with ISIS. It's an ugly and complicated mess and comparing to Italians or Japanese is a gross oversimplification.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#110

Post by humanrebar »

ideonexus wrote: post #84
JackFr wrote: post #19

> By the 1920s, pseudo-scientists and polemicists in the 1920s popularized the notion that Italians were a separate race from Anglo-Americans. These scientists were 'pseudo' only in retrospect. It literally took a world war to knock eugenicists out of the mainstream. As we pat ourselves on the back today for being so rational and enlightened, we would do well to remember episodes like that and restore some sense of h…

Another dimension to consider in this is to be careful in how we demonize the Anti-Evolution people from this time in history as well. I do believe that William Jennings Bryan of the Scopes Monkey Trial was a very ignorant man in many regards, but the textbook he was protesting was horrifying in for they way it promoted eugenics. I wrote about this here after listening to a presentation from an anthropologist on the…

> history remembers him as a buffoon rallying against a now-obvious scientific truth

Well, some of that, but mostly he's remembered for being a powerful populist politician that delivered the "cross of gold" speech.

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