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How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

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Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#101

Post by jacquesm »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17
jacquesm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump changes plenty, in the past it was assumed that the USA would honor visa once they were issued, now it turns out not to be the case. Essentially this is breach of contract.

It is not a breach of contract. A visa is not a guarantee of entry even though many people assume it is. [Edit: Please don't interpret my comment as suggesting I think this is a good idea. If you check my posting history, you'll discover I'm an outspoken proponent of open borders.]

I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. I've traveled pretty much where-ever I could go and once a visa was obtained it was never recalled. Now, I'm a 'well behaved white guy' (or so you might think) from a 'good' country (never mind the slavery, the rape, the pillage, the piracy, exploitation and murder) so that probably skews the odds of this not happening decidedly in my favor.

Even so, if my country started to structurally refuse entry to foreigners who had - at their expense and with considerable documentation requirements - obtained a visa in the legal way I'd be quite upset and in fact highly surprised.

See, even though a visa is not a guarantee the general rule is that they are not withdrawn capriciously and if you do that you risk making people from other countries wonder if it is worth applying for a visa in the first place.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#103

Post by edge17 »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #95
edge17 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...

Wow. I knew the H1B category was biased towards large companies, but I didn't realize it was so bad. The first cultural, linguistic, or otherwise geographically-constrained job in the list is #84, "Foreign Language And Literature Teachers." "Interpreters and Translators" is down at #131, with a grand total of 268 applicants - practically a rounding error after 300,000 tech applicants. Whatever_dude's example seems so…

It's like anything, there's a whole ecosystem involved - which includes having a lot of money to pay the right lawyers that know how to navigate the system properly. I've seen companies hire the wrong lawyers and, after promising the individual that everything would come through, end up having to tell the person that the application was denied.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#104

Post by devmunchies »

jacquesm wrote: post #91
anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

> that's how America got populated in the first place

This isn't 1910. We are the top 5 in the world in population. We don't need as much immigration as we used to.

Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#105

Post by isolli »

jacquesm wrote: post #91
anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

It may be collective hypocrisy, but the poor today did not get rich after their ancestors got here, so in principle they owe nothing to the system.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#106

Post by logicalmind »

testUser69 wrote: post #58
mda wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be happy or sad if after years of drastically reduced Immigration America's tech dominance is destroyed?

That assumes that the sole reason America has tech dominance is because of international diversity. But we've always been tech dominant, and according to many people we're not even diverse.

There are certainly a couple of examples of international diversity, and refugee acceptance, among two of the largest tech companies ever. Steve Jobs is the son of a Syrian refugee. Likewise, Sergey Brin's family came to this country as a Russian refugee.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#107

Post by cylinder »

randomname2 wrote: post #100
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

It seems this is about to happen soon, a draft of this new executive order was leaked and viewed by Axios yesterday [1]: "A draft of Trump's executive order viewed by Axios directs the Secretary of Homeland Security to consider ways to "make the process of H-1B allocation more efficient and ensure the beneficiaries of the program are the best and the brightest." That could mean replacing the current lottery system wi…

Tech support tough to fill without H1B? Give me a break! What a crock. Unless they mean "tough to fill at $8/hr."

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#108

Post by mi100hael »

lukeschlather wrote: post #69
jordanb wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree H1s should get Green Cards much faster. The visa employee should also have more flexibility in changing jobs, including when his GC is being processed. I don't like the "staple a green card" proposals for anyone who gets a STEM masters degree though. Many US Universities have already turned into masters degree mills for people trying to get visas. If Universities were allowed to sell Green Cards the problem w…

That sounds like a problem (if it is a problem) that should be addressed by limiting the number of student visas, not by allowing people to get a valuable US education and then telling them to go home. I've worked with many people on H1Bs and student visas. Every single one of them was a valuable person to work with, and they should be citizens. Maybe universities are becoming green card mills, but in my experience e…

> I've worked with many people on H1Bs and student visas. Every single one of them was a valuable person to work with, and they should be citizens.

In what industry do you work? As a software engineer, I've worked with a lot of people on H-1Bs. They are normal, nice people like anyone else I'd have no problem with them becoming citizens given the proper process, but I wouldn't say they brought more value than any American programmer.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#109

Post by mywittyname »

anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

Keep hammering the fact that these people are job producers, not consumers. If you can prove that one skilled H1B results in additional two jobs being created in the region, then it becomes an easier pill to swallow.

I work in a rural region with a high number of H1Bs because one of the biggest companies in the area is a tech giant. Most people I've talked to (outside of tech) realize that these people bring in a lot value to the area and without them, 10s of millions of dollars would disappear from the local economy.

I straight up tell people, when asked about H1Bs, that I wouldn't have a job if not for them. I've worked at too many companies where the star of the team was on an H1B.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#110

Post by kahnpro »

sidlls wrote: post #80
whatever_dude wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

Why would that be absurd? A highly specialized skill in an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live should command a higher than average wage. Much higher if the situation is so desperate that a foreign worker has to be sought. Also: the majority (by far) of H1-B visas are for technology work. It may not technically be "tech only" but in practice it may as well be.

What is a reasonable higher than average salary completely depends on the market. But you really, really need to step out of the tech bubble before thinking about wages... tech people are reeeally out of touch when it comes to what money the rest of the country has to live off of.
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