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Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

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Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that not all newspapers are going to be publishing the exact same amount of information on any event, including sports scores. So, for example, if a person is saying they remember that the Red Sox lost 2-3 to the Brewers, and that they read that in The New York Times, you can check the NYT to see if they published that result on that day. I mean, if they say they remember reading that in the NYT, but it…

What difference does it make? If a person can recall from memory the scores for any major sporting event on any arbitrary day, who cares which source they originally memorized them from? Regardless it is easily verifiable, even pre-internet, and regardless it qualifies as super memory.

It matters because if the source is not what they say it was, then either they didn't memorise the fact from the source they say they did, in which case maybe they just looked the fact up very recently instead of on the day they say they did, or they don't remember where they read the fact in the first place which means they don't have such a good memory as you think they do.

For example - if you tell me you were born on October 24, 1812, and I tell you that on that day the Battle of Maloyaroslavets took plase near Moscow, and that I read it in the papers on that day- how do you know that I really read it in the papers on that day? You don't. You only know that I know the Battle of Maloyaroslavets took place on that day and year.

That's my claim: "I read in the papers, on 24 October, 1812, that the Battle of Maloyaroslavets was taking place near Moscow". Here's my evidence "I know that on 24 October, 1812, the Battle of Maloyaroslavets took place near Moscow".

One does not follow from the other, so you really have no way to tell whether I really read the papers in 1812, or whether I'm just bamboozling you about my amazing memory powers.

You're saying it doesn't matter, and I have amazing memory powers anyway, because I remember the Battle of Maloyaroslavets. Except, how do you know when the Battle of Maloyaroslavets took place? That's the other half of the claim- and it's easy to fake: I can fail to recall a fact a million times and get it right once, and people will still be amazed by my memory powers and tell each other I got great memory because I remembered it the once.

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#102
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can put him in a room alone and ask him questions. Many, many people have interviewed and investigated him. He was also severely disabled mentally, he's not a normal guy who is really smart. He was a mentally retarded person who could not care for himself. There was a documentary in which he spoke to neurologist VS Ramachandran and they showed how he was unable to grasp the concept of a metaphor, taking i…

Yeah, I don't know about his fmri and its interpretation. I'm always very skeptical of this sort of "evidence". In the past people have used fmri data to support any old hackneyed, half-baked theory they wanted, like for instance, that bit about women not being able to park cars as well as men because they have a worse spatial sense [1]. As to his mental disability, I agree that if it's true that some people are ment…

> Let's look at Kim Peek- people say he did pretty amazing things because he could calculate your birth day from your birth date and he memorised facts.

What? I'm not sure you actually know who he is and his abilities. It's not that he knew some facts. It's that he knew the zip code for nearly every street in the country, even inconsistent ones. It's that you could have an auditorium full of people asking him the most obscure questions they could come up with ("When was the birthday of Lincoln's younger Aunt?").

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#103
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't know about his fmri and its interpretation. I'm always very skeptical of this sort of "evidence". In the past people have used fmri data to support any old hackneyed, half-baked theory they wanted, like for instance, that bit about women not being able to park cars as well as men because they have a worse spatial sense [1]. As to his mental disability, I agree that if it's true that some people are ment…

> Let's look at Kim Peek- people say he did pretty amazing things because he could calculate your birth day from your birth date and he memorised facts. What? I'm not sure you actually know who he is and his abilities. It's not that he knew some facts. It's that he knew the zip code for nearly every street in the country, even inconsistent ones. It's that you could have an auditorium full of people asking him the mos…

> The same goes for his powers of recall (it's a parlour trick and something you can train at) except it's also possible to fake it, in the way I suggest above, because nobody really keeps that sort of fact handy and they'll probably not be given the time to check.

Also, yes they do. They absolutely did that with Kim Peek. People investigated him with lists of such facts at hand.

> Right off the bat, the very fact that the two things he's remembered for -calculating birth days and recalling news items-

You have no idea what you're talking about. He was known for neither of those things.

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#104
post #76

Not a neuroscientist here, so this is just layman's rambling thoughts, but I wonder if that much direct communication between the brain hemispheres were actually needed to appear as a single consciousness: As I understand it, a large part of how the brain develops is "learning" both about the environment and about the intricacies of one's own body. There is no engineer who calibrates the brain to work with the partic…

How would you apply the same reasoning to conjoined twins?

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#105
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can put him in a room alone and ask him questions. Many, many people have interviewed and investigated him. He was also severely disabled mentally, he's not a normal guy who is really smart. He was a mentally retarded person who could not care for himself. There was a documentary in which he spoke to neurologist VS Ramachandran and they showed how he was unable to grasp the concept of a metaphor, taking i…

Yeah, I don't know about his fmri and its interpretation. I'm always very skeptical of this sort of "evidence". In the past people have used fmri data to support any old hackneyed, half-baked theory they wanted, like for instance, that bit about women not being able to park cars as well as men because they have a worse spatial sense [1]. As to his mental disability, I agree that if it's true that some people are ment…

You linked to artofmemory.com. Did you ever read Moonwalking with Einstein? The author, Joshua Foer, was a skeptic of memorization parlor tricks. So he decided to try it for himself and actually became the USA Memory Champion, accomplishing memorization feats that he thought were impossible.

The book debunks many myths, most prominently that of photographic memory. The author also expresses his opinion about some famous characters known for their supposed memorization skills. For example, he explains how one guy who claimed to be reciting pi from memory was actually using his hands in a way that evinced the use of a mental arithmetic method, not recall of a memorized number.[1]

But the book is very clear on the fact that you _can_ memorize thousands of digits of pi. And he explores some famous characters who apparently did have perfect recall of trivia. In interviews with scientists, and drawing on his own experience, he draws parallels between their behavior and the memorization methods he and others learn and practice. Which isn't to say those famous characters were charlatans, but rather appear to be people whose brains naturally and uncontrollably applied similar "mental tricks" that normal people can learn and use, albeit with concerted effort and in a more limited fashion.

It also analyzes why these seemingly magical abilities aren't actually as productive and useful as you would intuitively think they are. Why forgetting is actually a very important faculty and remembering too much can be a serious deficit. So if you're skeptical because you're reasoning that anybody with such memorization abilities would be like gods among men, then the fault is in your assumptions about the function and purpose and power of memory in our intellectual and social lives.

Another interesting phenomenon is people who lack episodic memory. It's especially interesting because the use of memorization techniques like memory palaces actually leverages episodic memory. I didn't really make the connection with the particular concept of episodic memory--nor did Moonwalking with Einstein or similar books I've read, IIRC--until I later learned about the definition and distinction between episodic and semantic memory. Episodic vs. semantic memory is an important and well-defined dichotomy applied in the neurological research community.

In a memory palace you effectively create associations between episodic memory and trivia. (That's not the whole of it, obviously.) For most people instantaneous recall of episodic memory comes naturally; but episodic memory is subjective and emotional and highly malleable, not as objective and concrete as trivia. For some people (perhaps most people) with perfect recall of trivia the distinctions between episodic memory and semantic memory are blurred. In fact, some of them don't even have episodic memory at all. They can remember what they had for breakfast 12 years ago[2], but can't recall (re-experience) how they felt at the birth of their first child, even if they were overcome with emotion at the time.

These things are interesting because they expand the horizon of what we intuitively think is humanely possible. But at the same time they circumscribe and limit those possibilities. It's all very fascinating. All the modern analogies we use for memory, particularly with computers, are just woefully inadequate. Even neural networks don't come close to scratching the surface of what's going on underneath. The _depth_ and _breadth_ of the multifaceted phenomenon we call memory is much more extraordinary than we believe. And it's tangled with our other intellectual faculties.

[1] The odd deception notwithstanding, it's still an accomplishment. Con artists aren't lazy people. This guy did a Slashdot interview years ago, I think. He was supposedly gay and on the autism spectrum, but in retrospect he may simply have been a sociopath. I've read several books on that, too ;) He may have been legitimately gay but he seemed to play it for sympathy--to show how different and difficult his life was. Sociopaths don't experience shame or embarrassment, at least not like we understand it, so they can be much more sexually fluid when they want to be. Stripped of cultural values and emotional content, sex isn't qualitatively different than shaking hands followed by a little euphoria, even if you prefer shaking hands with one sex more than the other. But sociopaths lie and excel at manipulation, whereas lying and manipulation are hardly characteristic of autism.

[2] Presumably, of course, as it often can't be proven. The accuracy of much other trivia can and has be proven, so there's little reason to doubt them. Contrast that with photographic memory, where it's been thoroughly studied by several researchers and not a single person has ever passed a test or even come close to suggesting the legitimacy of their claim. Not that those people are charlatans, either. Just under an illusion.

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What difference does it make? If a person can recall from memory the scores for any major sporting event on any arbitrary day, who cares which source they originally memorized them from? Regardless it is easily verifiable, even pre-internet, and regardless it qualifies as super memory.

It matters because if the source is not what they say it was, then either they didn't memorise the fact from the source they say they did, in which case maybe they just looked the fact up very recently instead of on the day they say they did, or they don't remember where they read the fact in the first place which means they don't have such a good memory as you think they do. For example - if you tell me you were bor…

Except that logically if there is ample evidence of a person meeting people for the first time and telling them verifiably true information about their birthdates, it is very unlikely that he just happened to luckily review that exact info the night before. So either it's a massive conspiracy with multiple independent media entities in on it, or he actually does have an excellent memory. I know which seems more likely to me.

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#107
post #103
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's look at Kim Peek- people say he did pretty amazing things because he could calculate your birth day from your birth date and he memorised facts. What? I'm not sure you actually know who he is and his abilities. It's not that he knew some facts. It's that he knew the zip code for nearly every street in the country, even inconsistent ones. It's that you could have an auditorium full of people asking him the mos…

> The same goes for his powers of recall (it's a parlour trick and something you can train at) except it's also possible to fake it, in the way I suggest above, because nobody really keeps that sort of fact handy and they'll probably not be given the time to check. Also, yes they do. They absolutely did that with Kim Peek. People investigated him with lists of such facts at hand. > Right off the bat, the very fact th…

That's what's on wikipedia. Why am I absolutely required to know who Kim Peek was? Because they based a film on him, and it sold well?

Also, for the love of god, listen to yourself. People "tested" him with lists of facts? And you don't think it's even remotely possible that those people were planted in the audience?

There is even a word for that thing: the people who do that are called "shills" [1]. In popular shows they're paid for it, from the persons who run the show, to make sure that nobody asks questions the mentalist (or the medium etc) can't answer.

You can't base anything on something that happened in a show! Give me a break.

_______

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#108
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't know about his fmri and its interpretation. I'm always very skeptical of this sort of "evidence". In the past people have used fmri data to support any old hackneyed, half-baked theory they wanted, like for instance, that bit about women not being able to park cars as well as men because they have a worse spatial sense [1]. As to his mental disability, I agree that if it's true that some people are ment…

You linked to artofmemory.com. Did you ever read Moonwalking with Einstein? The author, Joshua Foer, was a skeptic of memorization parlor tricks. So he decided to try it for himself and actually became the USA Memory Champion, accomplishing memorization feats that he thought were impossible. The book debunks many myths, most prominently that of photographic memory. The author also expresses his opinion about some fam…

>> you _can_ memorize thousands of digits of pi.

I'll agree that this is not impossible, but the rest is something some guy wrote in a book, which he then sold to promote his business of doing that sort of thing.

You don't know me of course, but I can assure you there is not the chance of a snowball in hell that I'll ever take that sort of opinion into account, when I try to figure out what is real and what is fantasy.

That is especially so when it comes to subjects that fascinate me, and that I really want to understand, one day.

On the other hand, thanks for taking the time to write all that; hope you don't misunderstand my tone.

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#109
post #103
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's look at Kim Peek- people say he did pretty amazing things because he could calculate your birth day from your birth date and he memorised facts. What? I'm not sure you actually know who he is and his abilities. It's not that he knew some facts. It's that he knew the zip code for nearly every street in the country, even inconsistent ones. It's that you could have an auditorium full of people asking him the mos…

> The same goes for his powers of recall (it's a parlour trick and something you can train at) except it's also possible to fake it, in the way I suggest above, because nobody really keeps that sort of fact handy and they'll probably not be given the time to check. Also, yes they do. They absolutely did that with Kim Peek. People investigated him with lists of such facts at hand. > Right off the bat, the very fact th…

[deleted]

Re: Split Brain Does Not Lead to Split Consciousness

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters because if the source is not what they say it was, then either they didn't memorise the fact from the source they say they did, in which case maybe they just looked the fact up very recently instead of on the day they say they did, or they don't remember where they read the fact in the first place which means they don't have such a good memory as you think they do. For example - if you tell me you were bor…

Except that logically if there is ample evidence of a person meeting people for the first time and telling them verifiably true information about their birthdates, it is very unlikely that he just happened to luckily review that exact info the night before. So either it's a massive conspiracy with multiple independent media entities in on it, or he actually does have an excellent memory. I know which seems more likel…

... or, the people that person met were working for him and they asked him about facts they knew the person had memorised. It's not that hard to imagine and it's actually the done thing in mentalist shows, even to the point that, as I say in another comment, there is a name for people planted in audiences to do that sort of thing: "shill".

So maybe that "ample evidence" was fabricated.

There's all sorts of other possibilities between "it's a conspiracy" and "it's a miracle" (both of which are equally unlikely btw). For instance, my favourite trick requires nothing but a dozen or so pieces of paper. You write the word "boy" on half and the word "girl" on the other half, seal each in an envelope and hand them to a dozen pregnant women, telling them to open it only after they've given birth (it makes no difference that they'll open it before anyway). Once they start giving birth, it's very likely that you'll have hit the right gender a couple of times or so. After that, those couple of "hits" will probably become ardent supporters of yours, and the best advertisement for your medium business. "How did she know?!" Well, you didn't- but it doesn't matter. It only matters that you appear as if you did.

And anyone looking on can go around saying things like "either it's a massive conspiracy or that lady really has extraordinary abilities!".

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