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Calling bullshit

callingbullshit.org

101–110 of 287 posts

Re: Calling bullshit

#101
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But thats the problem. You can have two argument which are both true but politically only one of them can win. This is why we argue. Not because we are uniformed but because our perspectives are different and our perspectives are different because it affects us differently. And so the real danger here is to go along with this romantic notion that facts used to be more meaningful when in fact it was only that perspect…

> You can have two argument which are both true but politically only one of them can win. No you can't. This is why we are living in "post-truth". Meaning it's not truth anymore. You are right in that either one can win, but only one can be true.

"You are right in that either one can win, but only one can be true."

Of course both sides can put forth true arguments in a political debate. I'm having a hard time coming up with a real world example, both because I don't want to push buttons that force you down a knee-jerk path on the button I push when I don't really care about it, and because we're really not used to seeing honest debates in the political arena.

But when society faces a decision A or B, each side can completely honestly tout the benefits of their decision and the costs of the other decision, both of which will exist. And God Almighty could come down from on high and hand us the exact, true, and full consequences of each decision, and those who benefit from one decision can completely honestly argue in its favor while those who may not benefit could completely honestly argue against it, which could be completely different sets of people for each decision. (There's almost never a decision that benefits everybody, even before we get into questions like relative amounts of benefit, or how society as a whole benefits.)

An argument containing elements of truth, or even somehow consisting entirely of truth, does not make it correct, because it still won't be the complete truth, which may well contain a superior argument for a different decision in it. But we don't have access to complete truth.

Re: Calling bullshit

#102
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that facts (whether on TV or not) didn't use to matter more than they do today.

So you are claiming that no one cared about the Clinton scandal in the 90s? Because no one sure didn't seem to care about the numerous Trump ones.

No I am claiming the opposite. That people care as much today as they did back in the 90s.

Re: Calling bullshit

#103

Admirable, but misguided. Fact-based argument has never been effective. The Greeks knew this. We keep forgetting it at our own peril. We know how to think critically; most of us simply choose not to. The audience who would see this kind of course/site are likely people who pretty much already have their head screwed on the right way. It would be much better to train them in effective rhetoric so they can counter the…

From Scott Adams (Dilbert):

> Rational People: Use data and reason to arrive at truth. (This group is mostly imaginary.)

> Word-Thinkers: Use labels, word definitions, and analogies to create the illusion of rational thinking. This group is 99% of the world.

> Persuaders: Use simplicity, repetition, emotion, habit, aspirations, visual communication, and other tools of persuasion to program other people and themselves. This group is about 1% of the population and effectively control the word-thinkers of the world.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/147595892021/how-persuaders-see...

Re: Calling bullshit

#104
This "bullshit" meme is getting tired. It seems like a cutesy way to say something like "not rigorous" or "deceptive". Which a good introductory course in logic (informal and formal) will help in spotting.

Re: Calling bullshit

#105
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are claiming that no one cared about the Clinton scandal in the 90s? Because no one sure didn't seem to care about the numerous Trump ones.

No I am claiming the opposite. That people care as much today as they did back in the 90s.

I... can't say anything other than:

Apparently not.

Re: Calling bullshit

#106
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I am claiming the opposite. That people care as much today as they did back in the 90s.

I... can't say anything other than: Apparently not.

I would love for you to substantiate that into something meaningful.

So by all means. Prove me wrong.

Re: Calling bullshit

#107
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think everyone, engaged and skeptical or otherwise can miss falsehoods if it aligns with their values/beliefs already. Taking something like this should, in theory, give you tools to make sure that even if you really want to believe what you are reading/hearing because it aligns with your world view (or worse, comes from a source you respect and trust) then you can still determine how honest or accurate it is.

The latest SGU (Skeptics Guide to the Universe) podcast touched on your point, and how everyone is susceptible to false hoods particularly when those opinions make up a persons identity. Someone who identifies as 'liberal' or 'conservative' is more likely to fight facts that go against their beliefs. One possible solution presented, was to always attempt to self identify as a skeptic who is okay changing opinions as…

Self identifying as a skeptic is easy. Changing opinions as new facts come in is hard.

Re: Calling bullshit

#108
post #101
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can have two argument which are both true but politically only one of them can win. No you can't. This is why we are living in "post-truth". Meaning it's not truth anymore. You are right in that either one can win, but only one can be true.

"You are right in that either one can win, but only one can be true." Of course both sides can put forth true arguments in a political debate. I'm having a hard time coming up with a real world example, both because I don't want to push buttons that force you down a knee-jerk path on the button I push when I don't really care about it, and because we're really not used to seeing honest debates in the political arena.…

Sure, but those are then by definition not opposing arguments. They are opposing stances on some political issue, sure, but on the facts side one party puts more value in one variable where the other party values another.

I was stating that two opposing arguments can't both be true, because then there is no truth.

Re: Calling bullshit

#109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. I would add that journalistic ethics have reached a new low. Astoundingly new low. On the other hand, I was not alive in the 1890s during the era of "yellow journalism" where everyone with a printing press was turning out nothing but bullshit on an hourly basis and hawking it to unsuspecting rubes. Turns out there is good money in just making up crap and printing it.

I remain unconvinced that journalism has reached a new low, rather than our ability to detect its shoddiness has reached a new high. The only two things I could identify as uniquely a problem today that weren't problems in the past are A: the money is coming out of journalism faster than it can adapt to it and B: the incredibly immediate pressures to be first and get the most clicks. The latter being a thing that has…

Completely agree. It's a sign of health not sickness that we are experiencing this change.

What people often forget is that at the same token lies can be spread so can corrections to those lies.

Re: Calling bullshit

#110
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can have two argument which are both true but politically only one of them can win. No you can't. This is why we are living in "post-truth". Meaning it's not truth anymore. You are right in that either one can win, but only one can be true.

no thats not why people claim we are living in post-truth. They claim that because they claim that truth doesn't matter anymore but truth never mattered in politics and people aren't discarding truth. I would urge you to give me examples in politics which can't have two different political outcomes both potentially true.

> I would urge you to give me examples in politics which can't have two different political outcomes both potentially true.

Climate change.

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