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Rust is Software's Salvation

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Re: Rust is Software's Salvation

#101

Post by stcredzero »

rch wrote: post #87
stcredzero wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago it was "concurrency primitives are going to change your life Those, plus the total package of tradeoffs in Golang did for me, in terms of implementing a game server. The whole package really is game changing for what I'm doing. I am somewhat disappointed that we still feel the need to create entirely new toolchains and rewrite everything just to support what should be an incremental improvement. There…

> There's something wrong with programming as an entire field Look at all the research and prototyping in aviation. What's weird about programming is the amazing longevity of experimental ideas vs. heavily engineered products.

What's weird about programming is the amazing longevity of experimental ideas vs. heavily engineered products.

I like that very much! Also strange are the obscurity and outright myths surrounding heavily engineered products, followed by hyped reinvention.

Re: Rust is Software's Salvation

#102

Post by rokosbasilisk »

zzzcpan wrote: post #99
rokosbasilisk wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yea, one of the reasons python gained traction was it being used in alot of cs101 classes. I wouldnt use rust, but I have used go just to learn

What about Pascal, isn't it still more widely used in cs101 than anything else? And yet, no traction.

dunno. I was thinking about my personal experience and this article.

http://m.cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/176450-python-is-now-t...

Re: Rust is Software's Salvation

#103

Post by senko »

steveklabnik wrote: post #85
senko wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they really the target audience, though? Do they need it? To an outside observer (me), seems like Rust evangelicism tries to cast a too wide net, ending in "meh" response from many.

Who are you to say what someone needs or doesn't need? In this specific case, as projects scale, extra performance is important. So they've started deploying Rust services to address that need. Like this post: https://blog.sentry.io/2016/10/19/fixing-python-performance-... Look at that CPU graph. That's actual, important, business value. > ending in "meh" response from many. Most of this thread is complaining about p…

I didn't say Rust has no practical value, nor did I say what someone needs.

I commented on the fact that saying Rust is for everyone you're watering down your marketing message.

Re: Rust is Software's Salvation

#104

Post by jay_kyburz »

quotemstr wrote: post #90
jay_kyburz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another couple of flaws that could have a big impact on Rust. - It will be super hard to hire for Rust for a long time. It would be a very bold move to write your app in Rust if you plan to grow your tech team anytime soon. - I havn't tried learning Rust myself, but I have read that little that it can be a little tricky to start thinking the rust way (borrowing?) Plus the language "looks" hardcore. I wonder if that w…

> super hard to hire for Rust for a long time Good programmers aren't strongly bound to language. Hire any systems programmer and have that person learn Rust.

Very true, also it's not really a weakness for Rust, but any new language / tools.

Re: Rust is Software's Salvation

#105

Post by ZenoArrow »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #48
ZenoArrow wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://softwaremaniacs.org/blog/2016/02/12/ownership-borrowi...

Quote: "Rust's borrow checker is a wonderful thing that forces you into designing code to be more robust. But as it is so unlike anything you're used to, it takes time to develop a certain knack to work with it efficiently." I don't think it's description of an issue.

>"I don't think it's description of an issue."

It is if it drives potential community members away.

Re: Rust is Software's Salvation

#107

Post by AnimalMuppet »

> Better concurrency than C++

That's... not saying all that much.

> Better performance than C

In 2014? Objection, your honor. Assumes facts not in evidence.

About problems with C:

> Maybe a bug in GCC outputted the wrong machine code

And Rust compilers will never have bugs?

> Maybe a race condition in Linux gave an unprivileged process the ability to tamper with your program

And writing your program in Rust is going to save you? Nope.

Now, in the previous two points, the claim may be that GCC/Linux is written in C, rather than that my program is written in C. But a compiler written in Rust can still output the wrong machine code, and the borrow checker won't save you.

Re: Rust is Software's Salvation

#108

Post by bjz_ »

stcredzero wrote: post #54
spacelizard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The echoes of Golang hype right now are somewhat ominous. A few years ago it was "concurrency primitives are going to change your life" and now it's "lifetime/ownership primitives are going to change your life." I am somewhat disappointed that we still feel the need to create entirely new toolchains and rewrite everything just to support what should be an incremental improvement. But at a certain point, a lot of the…

A few years ago it was "concurrency primitives are going to change your life Those, plus the total package of tradeoffs in Golang did for me, in terms of implementing a game server. The whole package really is game changing for what I'm doing. I am somewhat disappointed that we still feel the need to create entirely new toolchains and rewrite everything just to support what should be an incremental improvement. There…

Maybe we should make it de rigeur that people relate their "inventions" with past art? A lot of times, when I point out past art, I get met with instant open hostility from younger devs. Is it any wonder that programming has the attributes of a popular medium, not a field of engineering study?

[...]

If young coders want to be the future intelligentsia and harbingers of a better kind of programming, they need to foster a set of subcultural norms that best leverages collective knowledge. Programming has to become a field that remembers its own history and can learn from its mistakes.

Graydon has consistently pointed out Rusts influences, indeed it is one of the reasons behind its name - ie. 'rusty old ideas'. But the influences of the creator are not enough. We need to promote the value of a historical perspective in our discourse, and so I I'm glad for your post. As a young developer I see it in my peers, but even sadder I also see it in my mentors and elders. So often there is two extremes of fervent excitement and lack of imagination that things could be better beyond ones own experience... both borne out of a lack of historical literacy.

That said, I don't mind reinventing the wheel in new ways - every time our wheels get better and better. But perhaps they could get better faster with fewer steps backwards with a little schooling on the foundations of our field.

Re: Rust is Software's Salvation

#110

Post by stcredzero »

bjz_ wrote: post #108
stcredzero wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago it was "concurrency primitives are going to change your life Those, plus the total package of tradeoffs in Golang did for me, in terms of implementing a game server. The whole package really is game changing for what I'm doing. I am somewhat disappointed that we still feel the need to create entirely new toolchains and rewrite everything just to support what should be an incremental improvement. There…

Maybe we should make it de rigeur that people relate their "inventions" with past art? A lot of times, when I point out past art, I get met with instant open hostility from younger devs. Is it any wonder that programming has the attributes of a popular medium, not a field of engineering study? [...] If young coders want to be the future intelligentsia and harbingers of a better kind of programming, they need to foste…

That said, I don't mind reinventing the wheel in new ways - every time our wheels get better and better.

Not always. Pry debugging Ruby can be pretty awesome but still often leaves a lot to be desired compared to the VisualWorks Smalltalk debugger+environment. Then there's the One Laptop Per Child project. How many developers were trying to recreate things that already existed in Smalltalk? What if they could've freed up the developer power wasted in that wheel reinvention? Seriously, a lot of the advanced state saving/rollback features would've just come for free in Smalltalk.

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