Live data from Hacker News

Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

blockgeeks.com

101–110 of 144 posts

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#101

I feel like the extreme decentralization people just ignore human nature which history has revealed time and time again. The wild west no existing power structure idea is great until some entity inevitably comes along and controls it and its not so decentralized anymore. Decentralization exists when a small enough community can be self-policing and actors have noble goals. That all changes when you get a single bad a…

> The wild west no existing power structure idea is Let me stop you right there. Decentralization isn't about no power structures, it's about decentralized power structures. Let's say you walk into the barn, slit a goat's throat, and throw it on the back of your horse to ride off back to your camp. I shoot you dead. In the Wild West, no one really knows how everyone will react. Who cares about you? Who cares about me…

> In a decentralized system, everyone already knows exactly why you are dead.

So in this presented decentralized system, if I want to take a certain action - kill a goat, pave a road, smoke some pot, sell some soda - I have to check what the entire community's beliefs are, verify that none of them will think that my actions are worthy of killing me - or at least that at least 50% would defend me against the potentially aggrieved - or at last the guy with the biggest gun - before I can go ahead and slaughter an animal, or build a roadway, or grow a plant, or go into business?

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#102
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in this case such a voting would be done using some variation of a ZK-Snark (or some other cryptographic algo) which would allow you to check your vote counted, yet remain anonymous.

It has to be tied to my key. That means if people can get my key they can figure out my vote. That's an insta-no for me. Someone has to hand out the keys (since only registered voters can vote) so they can keep a record or be compromised. In our current system you can find out that I voted , but not how I voted. That should be how it's setup.

In regards to normal/traditional voting (which I prefer to current internet solutions btw, for the reasons below), it can have its own issues as a lot of countries can attest to.

That said, We're talking about digital voting here (or at least I was) and the comparison is to a digital centralized solution, in which browser history, cookies, server logs, and not to mention the database itself has issues that can compromise the voter and the election.

The key system, wouldn't necessary have to work that way (you could have a derivative id or something like that, the system could automatically assign tokens each election without the need for manual distribution, you can throw away the temporary key, etc..). It's a open problem though, and it's good to bring these critiques up and think about solutions, I woudln't dismiss the whole thing though on the first problem found, it's easy to criticise but most technologies do have issues initially that need to be solved (and that's part of the fun). What's so interesting about decentralization technologies is that they open new possibilities and novel solutions to old problems.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#103
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The voting would using a cryptographic system to ensure confidentiality. The coercion attack is an interesting problem but something that is already illegal but cannot be fully prevented. IMO it outweights the disadvantages of a centralized voting database that can be easily changed by a sys admin.

How would that magic crypto work? Remember, it needs to stop both willful vote selling and coerced checking. Your second paragraph ignores the fact that the current system of anonymous ballots prevents the problem quite well, as evidenced by fraud rates measured in single-digit-per-billion levels, and paper ballots allow recounts without any use of computers and have the nice effect of making tapering a physically-di…

See zk-snarks, zcash, homomorphic encryption, etc..

Let's not make this an accidental strawman.. My second paragraph is referring to electronic and internet voting solutions vs decentralized/blockchain solutions and NOT traditional in person voting with independent observers, etc..

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#104

I feel like the extreme decentralization people just ignore human nature which history has revealed time and time again. The wild west no existing power structure idea is great until some entity inevitably comes along and controls it and its not so decentralized anymore. Decentralization exists when a small enough community can be self-policing and actors have noble goals. That all changes when you get a single bad a…

Every political discussion always boils down to the opposition 'not understanding human nature' or 'the world' this is always backed up by 'history'.

I won't accuse you of not understanding humans since it seems none of us do (and it drives us mad!) but I think it's fairly clear what an ideal society looks like: Free.

Now do we want to accomplish this with thought policing (something we've been trying to build forever and we're getting closer) or by giving individuals more responsibility along with the education needed to handle it. For me that is the only question.

Edit: I realize the irony of calling a thought policed society free but the Utopian vision of authoritarians is one where they can destroy all the people and knowledge that don't fit with their vision and thereby reach a 'steady state'. Libertarians definitely have the harder problem to solve: Creating a fundamentally agnostic society.

The point is that both complete authority and complete liberty are unsolved problemsm, but we (as a society) seem to be much more excited to solve the first one. This worries me and others like me and so we say "Hey what about we use all of our amazing technology to answer that second question instead" - it really rubs me the wrong way when the answers we get are some defeatist attitude about 'human nature' and the impossibility of equality.

I recommend reading 'The Dominant Man: The pecking order of human society' for some interesting perspectives on human nature. There's no doubt in my mind that we can design a decentralized global society where the only hierarchy is the one we naturally (read: unconsciously) establish within our tribes.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#105

I feel like the extreme decentralization people just ignore human nature which history has revealed time and time again. The wild west no existing power structure idea is great until some entity inevitably comes along and controls it and its not so decentralized anymore. Decentralization exists when a small enough community can be self-policing and actors have noble goals. That all changes when you get a single bad a…

Every political discussion always boils down to the opposition 'not understanding human nature' or 'the world' this is always backed up by 'history'.

I won't accuse you of not understanding humans since it seems none of us do (and it drives us mad!) but I think it's fairly clear what an ideal society looks like: Free.

Now do we want to accomplish this with thought policing (something we've been trying to build forever and we're getting closer) or by giving individuals more responsibility along with the education needed to handle it. For me that is the only question.

The point is that both complete authority and complete liberty are unsolved problemsm, but we (as a society) seem to be much more excited to solve the first one. This worries me and others like me and so we say "Hey what about we use all of our amazing technology to answer that second question instead" - it really rubs me the wrong way when the answers we get are some defeatist attitude about 'human nature' and the impossibility of equality.

I recommend reading 'The Dominant Man: The pecking order of human society' for some interesting perspectives on human nature. There's no doubt in my mind that we can design a decentralized global society where the only hierarchy is the one we naturally (read: unconsciously) establish within our tribes.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#106

I feel like the extreme decentralization people just ignore human nature which history has revealed time and time again. The wild west no existing power structure idea is great until some entity inevitably comes along and controls it and its not so decentralized anymore. Decentralization exists when a small enough community can be self-policing and actors have noble goals. That all changes when you get a single bad a…

Every political discussion always boils down to the opposition 'not understanding human nature' or 'the world' this is always backed up by 'history'.

I won't accuse you of not understanding humans since it seems none of us do (and it drives us mad!) but I think it's fairly clear what an ideal society looks like: Free.

Now do we want to accomplish this with thought policing (something we've been trying to build forever and we're getting closer) or by giving individuals more responsibility along with the education needed to handle it. For me that is the only question.

The point is that both complete authority and complete liberty are unsolved problemsm, but we (as a society) seem to be much more excited to solve the first one. This worries me and others like me and so we say "Hey what about we use all of our amazing technology to answer that second question instead" - it really rubs me the wrong way when the answers we get are some defeatist attitude about 'human nature' and the impossibility of equality.

I recommend reading 'The Dominant Man: The pecking order of human society' for some interesting perspectives on human nature. There's no doubt in my mind that we can design a decentralized global society where the only hierarchy is the one we naturally (read: unconsciously) establish within our tribes.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#107

I feel like the extreme decentralization people just ignore human nature which history has revealed time and time again. The wild west no existing power structure idea is great until some entity inevitably comes along and controls it and its not so decentralized anymore. Decentralization exists when a small enough community can be self-policing and actors have noble goals. That all changes when you get a single bad a…

"Dictatorship, Democracy, and Development" : http://www.svt.ntnu.no/iss/Indra.de.Soysa/POL3503H05/olson.p...

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The wild west no existing power structure idea is Let me stop you right there. Decentralization isn't about no power structures, it's about decentralized power structures. Let's say you walk into the barn, slit a goat's throat, and throw it on the back of your horse to ride off back to your camp. I shoot you dead. In the Wild West, no one really knows how everyone will react. Who cares about you? Who cares about me…

> In a decentralized system, everyone already knows exactly why you are dead. So in this presented decentralized system, if I want to take a certain action - kill a goat, pave a road, smoke some pot, sell some soda - I have to check what the entire community's beliefs are, verify that none of them will think that my actions are worthy of killing me - or at least that at least 50% would defend me against the potential…

You'll know exactly how to start your business and you'll have lots of software around you that makes it very easy to not do things that will make nearby people want to kill you.

You won't be able to just do things using your internal assumptions of "how normal people work". That way of thinking will end, outside of some traditionalist preserves. Social norms were necessary for basic economic and legal coordination before we had communications networks. They're being replaced for those functions. They'll be kept on for more limit use in actual social interactions.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a decentralized system, everyone already knows exactly why you are dead. So in this presented decentralized system, if I want to take a certain action - kill a goat, pave a road, smoke some pot, sell some soda - I have to check what the entire community's beliefs are, verify that none of them will think that my actions are worthy of killing me - or at least that at least 50% would defend me against the potential…

You'll know exactly how to start your business and you'll have lots of software around you that makes it very easy to not do things that will make nearby people want to kill you. You won't be able to just do things using your internal assumptions of "how normal people work". That way of thinking will end, outside of some traditionalist preserves. Social norms were necessary for basic economic and legal coordination b…

I think I prefer the alternative where a rule of law exists, and not everyone is presumed to be waiting to kill me when I fail to check their particular murder list on the blockchain.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#110
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that magic crypto work? Remember, it needs to stop both willful vote selling and coerced checking. Your second paragraph ignores the fact that the current system of anonymous ballots prevents the problem quite well, as evidenced by fraud rates measured in single-digit-per-billion levels, and paper ballots allow recounts without any use of computers and have the nice effect of making tapering a physically-di…

See zk-snarks, zcash, homomorphic encryption, etc.. Let's not make this an accidental strawman.. My second paragraph is referring to electronic and internet voting solutions vs decentralized/blockchain solutions and NOT traditional in person voting with independent observers, etc..

> See zk-snarks, zcash, homomorphic encryption, etc..

Can you specify precisely how those work to prevent this problem? Remember, this is harder than trying to prevent a third-party from identifying users because the system has to survive collusion by the user.

Post reply on HN