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In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

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Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#101

Post by webscaleizfun »

rglullis wrote: post #64
webscaleizfun wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its still extremely dangerous to give birth in the US when compared to Greece, our maternal death rate is 7x higher [1], on par with Iran, Hungary and Saudi Arabia. [1] - http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=2223

What a horrible display of "Lies, damn lies, and statistics." 0,021% death rate is far from "extremely dangerous", and why the focus on this one specific chart? Amazing cherry-picking you've done.

Why do hundreds of pregnant women die every year in the US, but significantly less die in Singapore, Greece, Canada, Ireland, etc? This shouldn't be a thing, and we shouldn't be this far behind other countries on this, its not an impossible problem to halve or even cut into a quarter that death rate. This isn't even discussing complications of pregnancy or infant mortality, both of which we are not doing amazing at.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#102

Post by SocratesV »

yagodragon wrote: post #68

I live in Greece and things are bad but as a matter of fact, the real problem is that we ,the Millennials, feel that we're screwed because we compare ourself with our parents. Our parents and our politicians really scammed the whole europe into believing that we have a strong economy but the truth is that everyone avoided paying taxes, they got huge loans that could never pay of and our politicians where really corru…

Went to Crete a few years ago and was surprised by the number of (what seemed residential) buildings with unfinished roof/terrace, but otherwise being used and perfectly normal. You could see the concrete pillars with the steel bars coming out on top.

Imagine it is some kind of way to dodge taxation since it is still considered unfinished?

Have also read Michael Lewis' "Boomerang", which also has a lot of similar anecdotes about Greece (and Iceland, Ireland, etc).

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#103

Post by flexie »

cgio wrote: post #97
flexie wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't pretend to describe all the rules in detail. In Denmark, property taxes are also calculated based on values that are not the current market value. Currently, 95% of Danes pay the state property tax based on a 2001/2002 value assessed by the tax authorities.

2001/2 value assessment I would expect to be lower than current market price in Denmark?

It's really hard to say these days. Often it's lower, of course, sometimes it's higher.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#104

Post by yagodragon »

arethuza wrote: post #79
yagodragon wrote: post #68

I live in Greece and things are bad but as a matter of fact, the real problem is that we ,the Millennials, feel that we're screwed because we compare ourself with our parents. Our parents and our politicians really scammed the whole europe into believing that we have a strong economy but the truth is that everyone avoided paying taxes, they got huge loans that could never pay of and our politicians where really corru…

"Our parents and our politicians" And Goldman Sachs as well! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-cr...

I wouldn't argue in favor of Goldman Sachs ,we can all agree on the shady stuff they've done. The real corruption came from our former prime minister Costas Simitis who tricked EU and Maastricht Treaty. Those complex financial deals created by Sachs would be meaningless if our politicians weren't corrupted . Compare Greece to Estonia , a former Soviet nation with really poor economy, yet they managed to meet the Maastricht rules trying for years without "cheating".

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#105

Post by ferongr »

rjsw wrote: post #77
ferongr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 650 sqft apartment of 1963 vintage is taxed around 250 euros/year

Still less than the property tax on a similar sized apartment in the UK (not in London).

Unfortunately, Greece is not the UK and the net income of a Greek is less than half that of a Brit.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#106

Post by esbranson »

On the subject of "law courts", I wanted to ask: Are Greeks able to even (practically) read the codified laws and regulations of their country online?

I ask because this is still pretty difficult in America, as most state and local law publishers do not publish them as (free) ebooks and make it hard to use their websites for anything but a reference. (I.e., it is difficult to read the law through and through online, as versus looking up individual sections.)

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#107

Post by flexie »

mfukar wrote: post #96
flexie wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't pretend to describe all the rules in detail. In Denmark, property taxes are also calculated based on values that are not the current market value. Currently, 95% of Danes pay the state property tax based on a 2001/2002 value assessed by the tax authorities.

No, you just pretended that the state property tax is very close to 0%, without mentioning WHAT is taxed at "very little" 0%.

I didn't pretend anything. Even if your property is taxed at €500k although it's worth €250k, you are still paying very little compared to Denmark. And actually, it is close to zero.

Many of my friends, all middle class, pay €5-10k per year in property taxes for what is really modest 100-150m2 apartments or houses in or around Copenhagen. Are you anywhere close to that in Athens?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#108

Post by simosx »

webscaleizfun wrote: post #47
simosx wrote: post #35

Some examples of inheritance would be either old houses at the village or small olive groves. Many old houses at the village are derelict and the small olive groves have little financial value. The olive groves are generally small because they have been divided among the children through the generations. If an olive grove is not tended for 5-10 years, it becomes unusable and costly to fix.

So overvalued property in the current economic context combined with unprecedented (for Greece) property taxes is making home ownership a burden? Plus the maintenance costs wipe out what remains of the value.

I think that the cases that the inheritance has been rejected is for property that is of little value. The article is doing a disservice when it does not break down what inheritances they are talking about.

Home ownership in Greece is quite sacred (around 70% own a home) and the current government is even avoiding forced evictions for those that do not pay their home loans.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#109

Post by jseliger »

thght wrote: post #87

This is not only about Greece, a house is a basic necessity of live, wether you can find a job or not. Governments should cap the price per square meter so a house will always be available for everyone. As it is now you cannot really buy a house, you need a mortgage for live and work your entire life to pay interest. If this continues every house in the entire world will become unending debt and ever more unattainabl…

Governments should cap the price per square meter so a house will always be available for everyone.

If only someone had thought of that before! http://econlib.org/library/Topics/College/pricecontrols.html

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#110

Post by mfukar »

flexie wrote: post #107
mfukar wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you just pretended that the state property tax is very close to 0%, without mentioning WHAT is taxed at "very little" 0%.

I didn't pretend anything. Even if your property is taxed at €500k although it's worth €250k, you are still paying very little compared to Denmark. And actually, it is close to zero. Many of my friends, all middle class, pay €5-10k per year in property taxes for what is really modest 100-150m2 apartments or houses in or around Copenhagen. Are you anywhere close to that in Athens?

Yes, easily more than €5k/year for a 120m2 house. (not me actually, my parents, but I doubt they lie to me about how much they spend)

Like others have already mentioned in other threads, land & property valuations are defined by the state, and are way inflated and unrealistic. On top of that, there's all these ridiculous things that contribute to the property tax, like how many streets neighbor the building, etc.

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