Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#101

Post by resolaibohp » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

fatlasp wrote: post #7

DougN7 wrote: post #4

Open offices were developed by people who don't have to really concentrate for their job. They're awful for developers.

I always thought open offices became popular because it was literally the cheapest set up for facilities. For startups it worked because all you had to buy was desks. Somehow that got spun in to 'open offices are so sexy!' Open offices are horrible for productivity imo. Moved to a job with an office and it is so. much. better.

I agree with you here. I also believe that a lot of the current design trends in new spaces these days has this same origin. Light bulbs hanging by a cord, reclaimed wood walls and ceilings, keeping raw pipes, wires exposed etc. It does look kind of cool, but the genesis was small businesses and spaces just trying to save money.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#102

Post by jrockway » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

caleblloyd wrote: post #27

I worked for a year at IBM's RTP campus. Everyone had their own dimly lit cube with 5-foot walls, no natural daylight, and white noise playing over speakers to drown out conversation. The depressing undertone of the office was part of what pushed me to quit. My team at my present job works in an open setting with 8 people in the room and windows with natural daylight. It's quiet enough to focus but gives us the oppor…

It's clear that there's no one-size-fits-all solution to office spaces. I would personally love working in a dark basement with lots of walls and minimal conversation. Introvert/extrovert strikes again!

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#103

Post by ptomato » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

thurn wrote: post #30

fsloth wrote: post #9

Is there anyone here who likes open offices more than a floorplan divised into smaller rooms? I ask because I've worked in an open office setting as a developer for years (the place is otherwise nice) and thoroughly despise it as a workspace. Yet some people don't seem to mind it. I don't mind serendipity. The problem is I serendiptously overhear everyones discussion which is incredibly disruptive for deep work. Fact…

I prefer open offices. You get a pretty significant echo chamber effect on articles like this because people who don't like it turn out to comment. Personally, I have no difficulty with noise (I prefer working in coffee shops to at home), and being able to easily start a design discussion with 4 or 5 engineers when necessary is extremely valuable. I totally get why some people don't like it though.

> easily start a design discussion with 4 or 5 engineers

or, rephrased, the ability to destroy 3 man-hours of productivity on a whim.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#104

Post by bogomipz » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

"He’s also one of the first Silicon Valley insiders to publicly and directly endorse the importance of deep work over the fuzzier values of connection and serendipity."

Isn't Joel and all of his enterprises based in New York City? am I wrong in thinking Silicon Valley insiders live and/or work in Silicon Valley?

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#105

Post by jrockway » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #99

ddorian43 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open offices are perfect for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

The philosopher Michel Foucault actually cites the Panopticon alongside school, military, papal, and other work power structures as being efficient in human discipline. It arguably worked well for prison power structure too with regards to rehabilitation, until gang infiltration in the late 1960's changed the power status quo.

Is the idea to figure out who's not working and then Eliminate Them? Because I can do that without ever seeing a person in person.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#106

Post by pinewurst » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #63

fecak wrote: post #10

As the moderator of a Reddit sub focused on comp sci careers, I don't think the open office is an issue for junior level developers. The worship of what we in that sub call the big 4 (some combo of Google, Facebook, Apple (or Microsoft), Amazon) is pretty much what you hear from every college senior, and I've never heard anyone even mention this as a negative. Of course these are mostly people who haven't had much ex…

I'm under the impression that Microsoft was The One Company of the big five that still gives its employees offices with doors.

Traditionally that was the case with Microsoft but they've rebuilt at least the Azure buildings into no-private-space hellholes (IHMO). It was a major reason why I didn't pursue a position there - yuck.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#107

Post by jrockway » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

mamon wrote: post #98

turowicz wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no shortage of iPhones, yet they are expensive.

Really? Because every time new iPhone hits the stores I keep seeing news about how they were sold out in one day, or how Apple online store has a shortages of this or that version.

He used the term "no shortage" not to literally say that it is possible to obtain an iPhone no matter what, but rather to mean "I see lots of them around". Indeed, a lot of people have iPhones.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#108

Post by nilkn » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:18 PM UTC

caleblloyd wrote: post #27

I worked for a year at IBM's RTP campus. Everyone had their own dimly lit cube with 5-foot walls, no natural daylight, and white noise playing over speakers to drown out conversation. The depressing undertone of the office was part of what pushed me to quit. My team at my present job works in an open setting with 8 people in the room and windows with natural daylight. It's quiet enough to focus but gives us the oppor…

Natural light is one of the most important aspects of an office to me. A few years ago I actually turned down an offer because I realized I'd be sitting in an interior team-sized room with no windows and just a door to a hallway, again with no windows. I would have been giving up a seat next to huge windows with light flooding into the room. I just knew that I'd end up depressed in those working conditions and decided to turn it down.

Maybe this seems melodramatic, but sitting for 8+ hours in a small room with no natural lighting reminds me too much of high school. I was really unhappy during high school, and I honestly believe a lot of it was just the physical environment. If I can avoid it, I will. I still have that same seat described above next to huge windows and every day I'm so happy to come in and just bask in the sun's glory. Even if it's a cloudy or rainy day it's just great.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#109

Post by mizchief2 » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:18 PM UTC

caleblloyd wrote: post #27

I worked for a year at IBM's RTP campus. Everyone had their own dimly lit cube with 5-foot walls, no natural daylight, and white noise playing over speakers to drown out conversation. The depressing undertone of the office was part of what pushed me to quit. My team at my present job works in an open setting with 8 people in the room and windows with natural daylight. It's quiet enough to focus but gives us the oppor…

Exactly. The whole point of a "open" office is so that people who constantly work with each other can easily communicate. Not to be cheap bastards and cram as many workers into a small a space as possible to save money on office space and furniture.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#110

Post by jrockway » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 5:19 PM UTC

QuercusMax wrote: post #35

dilap wrote: post #13

An open office wouldn't be so bad if library-like codes of silence were enforced.

Where I work (at Google), it's generally pretty quiet; you'll occasionally have conversations going on, but most of the time all you hear is typing. It's not quite "library-like", but making phone calls at your desk is very strongly frowned upon. At my last company, we generally had 1-2 person offices; it was very easy to stay in your office all day long and never interact with other developers. With the open plan he…

I mean, Google is a big company, and it varies widely. I sit in an open office space with the staffing team. They are much louder than our team, most of the time.

I like the idea of team rooms, we should try more of that.