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When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

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Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#101
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ryanair, I guess. Verona to Brussels is 8 Euros. A "meal deal" on the plane is 10.

That's not even the cheapest. I see Timisoara, Romania to London for £4.49, or US$5.80. That's a 2.5 hour flight! (No baggage, no food, but that's the real price -- the airlines aren't allowed the "hidden fees" any more.) See, for example, Ryanair's London Stansted to Anywhere -- and note that a train (£19) or bus (I'd guess about £8-9) from Stansted to London will cost more than some of these fares: https://www.ryan…

Which is cheaper than panini at €5.50.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support freedom of movement, but I also understand people's worries about unmanageable burdens placed on support systems for a nation's people. Of course, if there were no support systems this would be a moot point, and is one of the few counterarguments to, say, increased public healthcare or pensions, that made sense. HN has a lot of proponents of universal basic income. Say a small country, maybe Iceland with on…

If helping people is what we care about, perhaps we should consider whether unrestricted immigration or basic income/other welfare state policies will help more. From what I can tell, neither BI nor traditional welfare states can come even remotely close to the benefits of open borders. It kind of makes one wonder whether helping people is the real goal of BI proponents. As for the "sudden influx," I think it's impor…

For anyone unaware: note that the Daily Mail is the most openly xenophobic newspaper in Britain, and RT (Russia Today) is a state-funded propaganda TV network.

Russia has a clear interest in destabilizing the European Union. The Daily Mail's motive is less clear.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support freedom of movement, but I also understand people's worries about unmanageable burdens placed on support systems for a nation's people. Of course, if there were no support systems this would be a moot point, and is one of the few counterarguments to, say, increased public healthcare or pensions, that made sense. HN has a lot of proponents of universal basic income. Say a small country, maybe Iceland with on…

If helping people is what we care about, perhaps we should consider whether unrestricted immigration or basic income/other welfare state policies will help more. From what I can tell, neither BI nor traditional welfare states can come even remotely close to the benefits of open borders. It kind of makes one wonder whether helping people is the real goal of BI proponents. As for the "sudden influx," I think it's impor…

> I suspect if Europe imported more peaceful immigrants, or even had a credible plan to handle this issue, the sudden influx would be less of a problem.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? If the immigrants are all "some Indian or Russian working at a bank, doing yoga after work and then going home" then we're fine, but unrestricted immigration would mean accepting the violent criminals, or racists, or foreign agents under orders to move to strategic voting districts etc.

> From what I can tell, neither BI nor traditional welfare states can come even remotely close to the benefits of open borders.

Open borders make competition much more aggressive. A complete lack of competition is inefficient, but competition within borders is generally adequate for that, especially when the border is the size of the US or the EU.

Sufficiently aggressive competition produces local maxima. It means no one has any margins to invest in the future. It erodes the tax base because taxes have to come only out of discretionary income or people will starve, but with enough competition employers can pay subsistence wages. And consumers making subsistence wages are price sensitive which drives down the margins of businesses. This is all very "efficient" -- it's the thing competition is "good at" -- except that it means there is no money for people to go to college or do any R&D that won't pay out in the current fiscal year or anything like that.

Borders artificially reduce competition somewhat. That isn't always bad.

A basic income helps with this. It gives people unconditional money that they can use to escape the local maxima created by aggressively competitive markets. Then those people can go to college and invent medicines and technologies that benefit people on the other side of the border.

That works better than everyone being "equal" because everyone is making subsistence wages.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#104
post #44
post #29

The UK has obviously seen a lot of debate about immigration recently, around the Brexit referendum. I've often felt like non-EU immigration was the elephant in the room during all this. 'Leave' voters have often been portrayed as racist bigots by liberal 'Remain' voters. (I'm one of the latter, and I've been guilty of this myself at times). But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a…

Please stop using the word 'racist' where it does not apply. The freedom of movement within the EU is definitely not based on race, but on the citizenship of any of the Schengen Area countries. "Xenophobic" is a much better term here. Furthermore, where does it say that the freedom of movement is due to some ideology which considers all nationalities to be equal, rather than just being a policy to improve the welfare…

> The freedom of movement within the EU is definitely not based on race, but on the citizenship of any of the Schengen Area countries.

That's true, but can't it still be considered racist? It may not be direct, intentional racism, but the net result of UK policy is that white people can enter the UK much easier than black or brown people.

If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, isn't that a sexist hiring policy?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#105
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

States in the US have different laws (consider income tax rates), and travel inside the US is super cheap, but we don't see people migrating like crazy to avoid taxes or get free stuff from the government.

> we don't see people migrating like crazy Yes we do! How many people do you know who were born in the state you now live in? I don't think one person in my office was born in this state.

Actually we have stats on that!

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/12/24/upshot/24up-fa...

50% of American live their life within 18 miles of their hometown. 80% live within 370miles (that's half the length of CA for comparison).

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support freedom of movement, but I also understand people's worries about unmanageable burdens placed on support systems for a nation's people. Of course, if there were no support systems this would be a moot point, and is one of the few counterarguments to, say, increased public healthcare or pensions, that made sense. HN has a lot of proponents of universal basic income. Say a small country, maybe Iceland with on…

If helping people is what we care about, perhaps we should consider whether unrestricted immigration or basic income/other welfare state policies will help more. From what I can tell, neither BI nor traditional welfare states can come even remotely close to the benefits of open borders. It kind of makes one wonder whether helping people is the real goal of BI proponents. As for the "sudden influx," I think it's impor…

'As for the "sudden influx," I think it's important to recognize what the real problem is. In Europe, Muslim immigrants seem to rape and commit other crimes a lot more than natives.'

A claim like that needs a lot more hard data than is available, both to support or refute. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, but regardless, noting the differences between the values of immigrant and native populations is worthwhile. I moved to Europe because I like the lifestyle here, so I'd be pretty upset if a bunch of Americans moved here and demanded all environmental protections be removed, mandatory paid holidays abolished, and turned every city into a wasteland of parking lots.

Regarding NYC and London, at least London certainly seems to have noticed the influx, in this case due to the large wealth (rather than poverty) of the newcomers:

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/29/london-mayor-...

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#107
post #89
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying the UK would agree to free movement of people from Nigeria, provided that it was reciprocal?

No, but it is not because the UK leaders or people think of Nigerians as somekind of subhumans like you seem to be making it out to be. It's just that such deal would not be beneficial for Britain, whereas as in Schengen, there are clear benefits.

But that brings us back to my original point. We end up discriminating against individuals based on which country they're from.

I'm fine with discriminating against individuals based on how "beneficial" they are as a person, provided the criteria are fair and objective.

I'm not so fine with discriminating against individuals based on how "beneficial" it was to make a deal with their country.

To give an extreme example, an illiterate, unemployed German with criminal convictions can enter and leave the UK freely, while a Nigerian brain surgeon is still going to have to jump through a lot of legal hoops to live here. How is that not unfair discrimination, or even racism?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#108
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That said, I think it's worth pointing out that in 1914, the means to travel didn't exist as it does today. We've given up some freedom but made gains on capability.

But the artificial barriers we've put up are much more restrictive than the old barriers. Perhaps we should make an immigration tax, and anyone can enter if they are willing to pay $10,000. Or some arbitrarily high, but feasible, amount.

These are called investors' visas, and already exist, though the prices are much steeper: $1 million investment in a new business for an American EB-5; 2 million pounds for the British equivalent. Payment doesn't go directly to the government; instead, it's supposed to be invested in a new business that creates at least ten jobs. But there are middlemen who offer the service of actually setting up and managing the business: http://fortune.com/2014/07/24/immigration-eb-5-visa-for-sale...

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it has a lot to do with the rise of relatively cheap global travel and strong disparity in the median wealth of different nations. 100+ years ago could you travel from a poor country to a wealthy country with relative ease and expect to raise your own standard of living? Either the journey was expensive and arduous, or the situation in places you could travel to was not likely to be a massive improvement on…

States in the US have different laws (consider income tax rates), and travel inside the US is super cheap, but we don't see people migrating like crazy to avoid taxes or get free stuff from the government.

People change states all the time, and generally for reasons you might think. It's not so much "I want to lower my tax burden" but "my paycheck will be higher and my housing costs lower - and the schools are better!", which of course is often related to tax policy.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#110
post #104
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop using the word 'racist' where it does not apply. The freedom of movement within the EU is definitely not based on race, but on the citizenship of any of the Schengen Area countries. "Xenophobic" is a much better term here. Furthermore, where does it say that the freedom of movement is due to some ideology which considers all nationalities to be equal, rather than just being a policy to improve the welfare…

> The freedom of movement within the EU is definitely not based on race, but on the citizenship of any of the Schengen Area countries. That's true, but can't it still be considered racist? It may not be direct, intentional racism, but the net result of UK policy is that white people can enter the UK much easier than black or brown people. If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, isn't that a sexist hir…

> If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, is that a sexist hiring policy?

Do people who are at least 6 feet tall make better employees?

If you require loan applicants to have income sufficient to make the loan payments, and that is true of more white applicants than black applicants, is that a racist policy?

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