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The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

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Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#101

Let me come in with a contradictory opinion especially on the overtime. You don't work for your current salary, you work for your next one. If you are one of those 9 to 5 ers, don't complain when the guy working 60 hours and more gets that promotion over you. The higher up the ladder you go, the more that will be required of you. Also, startups or high paying jobs will require more of you since you will get getting m…

Why am I getting down voted for this?

It seems to be the latest trend on YC. If you disagree with someone's opinion, down vote it, regardless whether the post was well argumented or not.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why am I getting down voted for this?

While I didn't down vote, I would say: because you're wrong. You seem to suffer from the delusion that number of hours a person works is what matters. Most people aren't productive above 40 hours a week, any high number of hours and you're just wasting time. Then there's the fact that working 60+ hours of week simply isn't health, and you're advocating that the thing you need to do to advance in the world is to trade…

There are highly competitive fields where this is the reality. Those also tend to pay very well and include large bonuses. And some of us like working in those fields. We don't just work on web projects or droid apps.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#103
I can't stress how important it is to cut commuting out of your life. I know many people who commute an hour each way, each day. Two hours per day. ~500 hours per year. Thats 20 to 30 days of your life each year wasted commuting, depending on whether or not you just count waking hours. And not only are you not making money those hours, you are spending it - on gas, insurance, the life of your vehicle, etc.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager: If your code blows up in production on a Saturday afternoon, and you don't answer email/skype/phone, you've effectively left me in the shit. I know thats my job, and I will deal with it and survive, but your future work is going to be very heavily scrutinized - borderline micromanaged - until I trust you again But the flipside, if your code blows up in production on a Saturday, and you spend four hours…

Others are recording the need for a real on-call rotation, so I'll just jump into this: >Aside from that, I expect 40 hours of "quality" braintime from you, and I don't really care where or when those hours occur, as long as you're collaborating with the team when they need you. There is no way you are getting 40 hours of "quality brain time" from anyone. If you believe you are, you don't know what "quality brain tim…

I phrased that wrong, but I'm not sure how else to phrase it. I suspect we violently agree, but if you want to take this offline I think my email is in my profile

I have a remote team, spread across the western seaboard of the US. I don't track hours, I don't do the whole "burn-down chart" crap. I keep almost no metrics about my team's productivity. As a result, my team are all far higher performing than I ever was as an engineer. If higher-ups want an assessment of my team's abilities, I'll figure out a way to give them what they seem to want that is truthful to my beliefs.

The employment contract says 40 hours, and our timesheet system will freak if you enter less than 40 hours, and of course you mustn't lie on your timesheet (hello HR! :) ) but what hours you work and when are up to you. My only caveat is that if another team member needs your help in office hours, you need to be able to talk to them and help them. The business pays for 40 quality hours, thats the rule. But nothing is black or white...

If you're "at work" but really you're on hacker news - as I am right now - then I'm not getting "quality" brain time.

Believe it or not, there are people in the world who'll spend 1 hour working, 7 hours on hacker news, then shut their laptop and demand that the rest of their time is out of bounds of work.

Honestly, though, those people are so easy to spot and manage. They're the ones who do deliver what I ask, but never more. They'll spend 3 days writing a post function, not because it took 3 days but because thats how much time I seemed to agree with in the estimate.

There are other people, who'll maybe spend 1 hour on a post function and say "done, whats next?"

There are others still who'll spend 1 hour and say "Hey, boss, the post function is done, but this entire framework is kinda crap, mind if I take three days to look at what else is out there?"

There are others still who'll spend 1 hour and say "Hey, boss, the post function is done, but its kind of weird for the users, how about we do this instead?"

Those last 2 types of people seem to enjoy life more, they're happier in themselves and I'll fight tooth and nail for anything they want. If they really work 30 hours a week, get their shit done and don't let any team members down: who cares, the lying on the timesheet issue is the only problem and I'll cover for them the best I can if they get caught. But the best folks will generally happily work 40 hours, and the 10 or so extra hours - I've found - are best "given" to them to do with as they wish.

The first person (the person who spent 1 hour on code and 3 days on netflix) might be temporarily useful to get code written, but really they're not worth hiring. Yes - I know - its my fault - I should get better estimates - I should follow up - I should write out requirements better. But that person is getting seriously out-shined every day by their team - who (lets be honest) know they're slacking - and that person at the very least is going to first on any chopping block. But more likely I'll work with HR to get rid of them.

The other one - the one that says when they're done and asks for more work - that person I'll try to coach into thinking for themselves more so in future they say "I've done the post function, now i'll go ahead and write the get/delete etc and document it, and there's a new unit test package i'd like to fiddle with"...

Now - to join back along with your comment - "We should accommodate workers such that they can cultivate a fruitful and creative mental state for use in employment when inspiration and flow is most likely to strike"

In my head I have an expression that I can't quite get into language - let people be people, let them be the best they can, and compensate them enough so that their best is directed towards the business - the thing that also compensates me for being the best I can be. but Don't demand more than that, don't try to take ALL their best time, don't try to elbow out their family or their hobbies etc. It needs to be voluntary, given. Not in a contract somewhere, demanded. It can be done, I've seen it, even in a big ole faceless corporation you can make a team perform just by shaping the environment to work for humans, rather than spreadsheets.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#105
post #4

Finally, you'll need to have the self-confidence or stubbornness to choose and stick to a path that most people don't take. You don't need self-confidence or stubbornness, just commitment to your principles... I have never worked more than 40 hours per week for anyone else. Ever. I arrive at 8. I leave at 5. I don't work from home. Except for emergencies. My definition of emergency: If someone is dying or their produ…

As a manager: If your code blows up in production on a Saturday afternoon, and you don't answer email/skype/phone, you've effectively left me in the shit. I know thats my job, and I will deal with it and survive, but your future work is going to be very heavily scrutinized - borderline micromanaged - until I trust you again But the flipside, if your code blows up in production on a Saturday, and you spend four hours…

He did say "or their production software isn't working"

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#106
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a manager: If your code blows up in production on a Saturday afternoon, and you don't answer email/skype/phone, you've effectively left me in the shit. As an IT employee if you are running mission critical software and (as Manager) don't have an after hours call-out rotation and procedures, then you're not doing a very good job, and I'll be looking for another place of employment.

The wonders of missing context :) Its not mission critical or life-threatening. I know this, my team knows this, but someone up in the food chain is going to want blood for any serious outage. I'm perfectly happy to shed blood for my team and take the crap, but I need something. Even if its a text back: "Dangling on mountain. Will check email on Monday" - then I can tell my higher-ups it won't be fixed till Monday, t…

I think this attitude is the problem. If you pay me for 40 hours of work, I owe you 40 hours of work. That is all.

If you want me to be on call, pay me to be on call.

If my code blows up, I don't owe you 45 hours of work for 40 hours of pay. If my code blows up, it's because you haven't managed testing and quality assurance properly. I shouldn't be able to get shitty code into production — that's why you're the manager and I'm the peon.

It may sound harsh, but demanding free work is exploitation. And trying to guilt people into working for free is immoral.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're just reducing your hourly rate. This is how I've always explained to people who constantly work overtime in salaried positions where they don't actually get paid for that overtime. You can at look at it one of 2 ways. 1. Your billable self stopped at the 8-hour mark on a given weekday and every hour after that, including weekends, you're just giving away free labor to the company. Just think about that every…

Do you also account for the fact that you are way more likely to be promoted if you work overtime?

Citation needed.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager: If your code blows up in production on a Saturday afternoon, and you don't answer email/skype/phone, you've effectively left me in the shit. I know thats my job, and I will deal with it and survive, but your future work is going to be very heavily scrutinized - borderline micromanaged - until I trust you again But the flipside, if your code blows up in production on a Saturday, and you spend four hours…

Others are recording the need for a real on-call rotation, so I'll just jump into this: >Aside from that, I expect 40 hours of "quality" braintime from you, and I don't really care where or when those hours occur, as long as you're collaborating with the team when they need you. There is no way you are getting 40 hours of "quality brain time" from anyone. If you believe you are, you don't know what "quality brain tim…

Before I dive into my comment, let me just state that I agree with you on the impossibility of delivering 40 hours of "quality brain time" and on the stupidity of measuring productivity in "butt-in-chair hours".

That said, I always get worried whenever someone starts advocating for getting rid of 40-hour work week without a very clear idea of how to replace it in concrete terms. See, maybe I'm cynical, but it seems to me that a lot of people forget that the whole concept of 40-hour work week comes from a compromise between the workers and the employers: it's supposed to mean you can be expected to work no more than 40 hours a week. Naturally, the employer will expect you to work no less, otherwise they're "not getting their money's worth".

Whether we like it or not, there is a power imbalance between workers and employers and it's usually in favor of employers. I don't want to touch sensitive topics of how that imbalance might be redressed, but as long as the imbalance is there, having a fixed number of hours in a work week -- even if that's only nominal -- is still better than getting rid of that and making workers vulnerable to having their historically hard-earned rights eroded or downright stripped away.

If that sounds too jaded and bitter, consider the "unlimited" vacation policy. At best, it means you'll still take roughly the same time off as the rest of the team. At worst, everyone ends up taking less vacation time than before and the company profits because they don't have the financial liability of unused vacations anymore.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I didn't down vote, I would say: because you're wrong. You seem to suffer from the delusion that number of hours a person works is what matters. Most people aren't productive above 40 hours a week, any high number of hours and you're just wasting time. Then there's the fact that working 60+ hours of week simply isn't health, and you're advocating that the thing you need to do to advance in the world is to trade…

There are highly competitive fields where this is the reality. Those also tend to pay very well and include large bonuses. And some of us like working in those fields. We don't just work on web projects or droid apps.

That's hardly the point. The point is that if not regulated, at a level where the average person can keep up, be healthy and have a life outside work, then some employers will push and exploit people.

Also employees shouldn't be rewarded for self destructive behaviour. Sadly many companies can't tell the self destructive from the people who just happen to enjoy what they do. And some of the self destructive actually do love their job.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others are recording the need for a real on-call rotation, so I'll just jump into this: >Aside from that, I expect 40 hours of "quality" braintime from you, and I don't really care where or when those hours occur, as long as you're collaborating with the team when they need you. There is no way you are getting 40 hours of "quality brain time" from anyone. If you believe you are, you don't know what "quality brain tim…

I phrased that wrong, but I'm not sure how else to phrase it. I suspect we violently agree, but if you want to take this offline I think my email is in my profile I have a remote team, spread across the western seaboard of the US. I don't track hours, I don't do the whole "burn-down chart" crap. I keep almost no metrics about my team's productivity. As a result, my team are all far higher performing than I ever was a…

You seem awesome to work for. Need an iOS developer?

Your style totally matches mine.

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