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We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

remotebase.io

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Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#101

Post by ryandrake »

FuNe wrote: post #14

I'm partially remote working (RW) at an organization that is slowly rolling back its RW culture(1). The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). "Culture" is used as a smoke screen for more sinister incentives. (I can say that with confidence because I can…

> The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away).

Sorry, but I've got to be the party pooper in this thread. I have worked with teams over the years that indeed DO work better co-located, and who ARE more productive when forced to communicate in an open office environment, etc. Night and day difference. When not in that environment they reverted back to the ol' "do something in isolation, throw it over the fence, wait days for feedback, then iterate" mode. I will stress that not all teams needed co-location, but many absolutely did.

This whole thread needs to be filed under the category "different people/teams thrive in different environments", because right now it's a "remote Work is best for everyone" echo chamber.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#102

Post by wyclif »

walljm wrote: post #82
FuNe wrote: post #14

I'm partially remote working (RW) at an organization that is slowly rolling back its RW culture(1). The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). "Culture" is used as a smoke screen for more sinister incentives. (I can say that with confidence because I can…

>The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). This is so much truth.

A related reason, that I mentioned in a comment a few weeks ago, is that some people in management who are required to be in the office resent the fact that their reports (who by the nature of their role definitely do not need to be working every day in the main office) are remote and that it helps their work/life balance.

The solution, I think, is for companies to properly define which roles are open to remote — perhaps it might be time for developers to receive a comp differential for being office-based — and to make work in the main office more appealing. Good food, a nice office, and other quality onsite benefits are ways this can be achieved.

[Disclaimer: I'm working remote now]

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#103

Post by ryandrake »

flukus wrote: post #25
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #16

> In remote team, we get to experience the culture at its most naked form. There is no catered lunch or a hip office with table tennis table. Everything artificial is stripped away. I totally disagree with this. The most naked form of communication is (and IMHO always will be) face to face. I can't tell how many countless times many emails were exchanged before simply speaking face to face solved the problem. Working…

> I can't tell how many countless times many emails were exchanged before simply speaking face to face solved the problem. I can't tell you how many times being able to look something up to respond in a more concrete way has solved countless meetings.

It's almost as if different modes of communication are appropriate for different kinds of problems! Who would have thought?

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#104

Post by chrishynes »

tbrownaw wrote: post #97
walljm wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, RW makes it easier for slackers to slack off; it is difficult for less effective managers to detect, let alone handle it. This is, I think, because most management techniques don't rely on any sort of objective measurement to determine effectiveness. Using measurements can have its own dangers if done poorly, but subjective observations and feelings about how productive or effective a team or individual is…

There mostly isn't any sort of objective measurement of effectiveness (if there was, everyone would use it).

You can't go based on something purely objective like lines of code, but a good code review will tell you if someone is working or slacking.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#105

Post by JoeAltmaier »

I recommend SococoRS for this issue (making remote work seem more like teamwork). It allows you to actually go up to a coworker's desk and say Hi. Unless their door is closed of course. Does screen share/vid conferencing and chat rooms, all in a simulation of a virtual office.

{ I own stock in Sococo }

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#106

Post by ryandrake »

collyw wrote: post #29
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #16

> In remote team, we get to experience the culture at its most naked form. There is no catered lunch or a hip office with table tennis table. Everything artificial is stripped away. I totally disagree with this. The most naked form of communication is (and IMHO always will be) face to face. I can't tell how many countless times many emails were exchanged before simply speaking face to face solved the problem. Working…

Not in every case. It was often an excuse for my last manager to not do anything like write down requirements. "I thought we talked about that." "Yes you changed your mind three times and I can't remember what the final outcome was." Personally I like having things done in writing as you have something solid to refer to afterwards.

If you don't have someone taking detailed meeting minutes, the meeting might as well not have happened. Always take notes and send to all participants promptly to verify accuracy. Isn't this Running A Meeting 101?

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#107

Post by cephaslr »

ryandrake wrote: post #101
FuNe wrote: post #14

I'm partially remote working (RW) at an organization that is slowly rolling back its RW culture(1). The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). "Culture" is used as a smoke screen for more sinister incentives. (I can say that with confidence because I can…

> The motto for this goes like 'teams work better if they are collocated, yada, yada'. The real reason is that managers want to feel in control (plus they want to drive away a lot of people by taking RW away). Sorry, but I've got to be the party pooper in this thread. I have worked with teams over the years that indeed DO work better co-located, and who ARE more productive when forced to communicate in an open office…

Fair enough, but I believe we can do a little better than "different people/teams thrive in different environments".

If its within team communication, and with slack/trello/github/standups and the team members are not speaking except every few days then thats an issue.

If its with external teams, then perhaps its an opportunity for self service api's or automation? I.e. let me query your api instead of having to meet with you. Understood that most cultures don't function this way but is there argument with the ideal?

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#108

Post by JoeAltmaier »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #16

> In remote team, we get to experience the culture at its most naked form. There is no catered lunch or a hip office with table tennis table. Everything artificial is stripped away. I totally disagree with this. The most naked form of communication is (and IMHO always will be) face to face. I can't tell how many countless times many emails were exchanged before simply speaking face to face solved the problem. Working…

A proper frictionless peer-chat-videoconference tool is actually better than face-to-face. You can share data; you can have facetime with arbitrary people around the 'building' without wasting time walking around. You can hear everybody and tell who is talking in a large meeting. But only if everybody uses the tools.

Worked this way for 5 years. One of the best work experiences of my life. So I don't believe folks who dis remote working, if they've never tried this.

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#109

Post by agibsonccc »

random42 wrote: post #100
agibsonccc wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually it's a just a quick phone conversation to talk about interest. The technical interview actually happens the second you enter my open source channel and contribute code or show off something cool you built. This demonstrates a few things to me: 1. You know our codebase 2. You can build things we need 3. I've already collaborated with you 4. You're proactive and interested in solving problems we would have for…

I like this. Interviews are supposed to be proxy of how successful / valuable the team member is going to be on the job. Since the person is already contributing, makes sense to cut out the "algorithmic quiz". Too bad I am not a java developer! :)

We also do a lot of c and scala :D. That was the idea.

One of the things I wanted to do was avoid using a degree or "pedigree" as an indicator. I myself dropped out of my undergrad at a no name university in the midwest. I don't have "pedigree".

I'm also not a large believer in the way things are done in the valley (did 2.5 years, that was enough for me..).

This is my opinion, I don't claim this is fact, but I know again, this may offend some: A lot of the emphasis on pedigree, but there are a lot of dead startups with people who have degrees from stanford,mit, harvard etc.

It's a self perpetuating echo chamber with a lot of money flowing through it. The group think is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

I love the valley, and there are a lot of good things about it, but the perpetual group think with the larger part of the population is a problem.

That being said, I don't think I would found a company anywhere else. I tried 3 times in Michigan, and it's just a lot harder. I learned a lot quicker in the valley. You have to learn what to watch out for though.

Anyways:

I also live the same life style we hire by. I mostly travel. My cofounder is in san francisco. I travel all over different parts of APAC with an established office in tokyo. There's only 2 of us in japan right now though. A lot of us are in the apac "time zone".

Re: We Don’t Simply Get Remote Jobs, We Join Remote Teams

#110

Post by [deleted] »

jimmywanger wrote: post #11

I think the main point of this article (which could have been half the length) is that you can't just declare a job remote. You have to have a culture and technology that supports it, or else if you take that remote job, you're getting set up for failure. If everybody else is having water cooler conversations, and making binding decisions based on them without email or chat, any remote employee is going to be constan…

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