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A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

nytimes.com

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Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#101

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #99
berntb wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Can you condemn Putin for starting wars and annexing area in Europe, just like Hitler in the 1930s? If you refuse I will assume that you work for the Russian junta. (To _only_ condemn USA instead is not an answer.) 2. My sources are e.g. what is said by common EU institutions and by state chiefs in the EU. Like here http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-31932005 BBC is just part of the anti Russian global conspiracy..?…

Military actions of aggression should be condemned, regardless of whether we call it a war. Russia annexing Crimea was one such action. The entire American operation in Iraq is another. Russia and the USA are more alike then their populations are comfortable admitting. Oligarchies cynically masquerading as democracies.

My main point here is: The whole Western democratic world is more or less saying the same thing about Putin.

You have answered two comments of mine without touching that.

(Also -- check the democratic peace theory. USA don't start wars against democracies. Putin just don't want to have prosperous democracies as neighbours.)

And so on.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#102

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #98
berntb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I am sorry, but you will have to settle for very light gray and very dark gray. Not black and white. 2. It is not just the media of US and Sweden -- most of the democratic world say the same thing. For most subjects, the democratic countries disagree.

I am attempting to argue for shades of grey; the American and Russian media narratives evoke a polarized situation. In that manner of thinking, I think it's fair to question the messenger who brings accusations of wrongdoing during a politically sensitive time. That is to say, this reporting came at a serendipitously good time for certain politicians. That everyone does it doesn't mean that everyone does it to the sa…

>> the American and Russian media narratives evoke a polarized situation.

As it said in what you comment on: Not only "American" -- most every Western democracy.

I think you are very much aware of that you didn't touch my second point above.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#103

Post by dleslie »

DenisM wrote: post #77
dleslie wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. See also: Operation Mockingbird It's likely that the state agencies have learned to better avoid the exposure of these sorts of programs. Regardless, The Intercept has more than a few stories[0], and Chomsky has shared his opinion[1]. Then there's the small matter of this[2]. And on and on; much of it is hard to verify, like Eglin Air Force base and its Reddit links. 0: https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3At…

Spreading propaganda is not the same as cooperation with the TLAs. If you read Chomsky in detail, he is describing exactly how this works, and it does not involve spies telling the NYT what to write. It's a lot more gentle. Seriously, if you're so keen to criticize the western media you might as well do it right. Chomsky wrote several books (E.g. Understanding Power) documenting and detailing how it works. Now, back…

If we cannot agree that cooperating with TLAs on messaging is acting as a tool of propaganda, then I don't see the point in discussing further.

Moreover, did you not see the links previously posted in this thread?

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#104

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #101
dleslie wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military actions of aggression should be condemned, regardless of whether we call it a war. Russia annexing Crimea was one such action. The entire American operation in Iraq is another. Russia and the USA are more alike then their populations are comfortable admitting. Oligarchies cynically masquerading as democracies.

My main point here is: The whole Western democratic world is more or less saying the same thing about Putin. You have answered two comments of mine without touching that. (Also -- check the democratic peace theory. USA don't start wars against democracies. Putin just don't want to have prosperous democracies as neighbours.) And so on.

The Americans absolutely overthrow Democratic governments[0]; they justify it by quibbling that perhaps the governments weren't the right kind of democracy.

I do not take issue with the notion that Russia engages in propaganda, because they obviously do. I believe I've said as much in this thread.

Whether or not I agree with your statement of the existence of a plurality of agreement among the "Western Democratic World" (why not all Democratic nations?), it is no matter. I would expect cooperation among the Five Eyes, for instance.

0: http://www.alternet.org/story/39416/america%27s_100_years_of...

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#105

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #102
dleslie wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am attempting to argue for shades of grey; the American and Russian media narratives evoke a polarized situation. In that manner of thinking, I think it's fair to question the messenger who brings accusations of wrongdoing during a politically sensitive time. That is to say, this reporting came at a serendipitously good time for certain politicians. That everyone does it doesn't mean that everyone does it to the sa…

>> the American and Russian media narratives evoke a polarized situation. As it said in what you comment on: Not only "American" -- most every Western democracy. I think you are very much aware of that you didn't touch my second point above.

How does that effect the legitimacy of the media engaging in cooperation with state actors for messaging, regardless of which state it is?

It seems to me it doesn't matter who agrees with the Americans regarding the Russians; hell, I agree with the Americans regarding Russian propaganda.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#107

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #105
berntb wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> the American and Russian media narratives evoke a polarized situation. As it said in what you comment on: Not only "American" -- most every Western democracy. I think you are very much aware of that you didn't touch my second point above.

How does that effect the legitimacy of the media engaging in cooperation with state actors for messaging, regardless of which state it is? It seems to me it doesn't matter who agrees with the Americans regarding the Russians; hell, I agree with the Americans regarding Russian propaganda.

This was not relevant to my point. 4 comments (in 2 places) without touching my point... :-( You are not serious, bye.

You argue also in the other comments that there are small differences between USA and Russia -- my repeated point is that the whole Western democratic world don't agree with your assessments here.

(In Sweden, a good part of the ex communists do agree with you -- at most 5-10% of the population-- but those guys have never supported a democracy in military conflict with a non democracy...)

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#108

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #104
berntb wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main point here is: The whole Western democratic world is more or less saying the same thing about Putin. You have answered two comments of mine without touching that. (Also -- check the democratic peace theory. USA don't start wars against democracies. Putin just don't want to have prosperous democracies as neighbours.) And so on.

The Americans absolutely overthrow Democratic governments[0]; they justify it by quibbling that perhaps the governments weren't the right kind of democracy. I do not take issue with the notion that Russia engages in propaganda, because they obviously do. I believe I've said as much in this thread. Whether or not I agree with your statement of the existence of a plurality of agreement among the "Western Democratic Wor…

Ah, it was a mistake to mention anything else with you, even in parenthesis...

You are not going to touch that the international community, not only US and Sweden, agree that Putin's Russia is much worse.

(As you are certainly well aware of: The democratic peace theory discuss wars, not involvements in coups during the second "great game", that of the Cold War.)

4 comments (in 2 places) without touching my point... :-( You are not serious, bye.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#109

Post by cema »

dleslie wrote: post #71
tnones wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of using "alt-right" in this discussion is also delicious, considering it's turned into a pit for people to be thrown into by the media rather than a label for those who adopted it.

Alt-Right is the new catch-all for dismissive responses, now that Conspiracy Theorist has lost its efficacy for this purpose.

Yes. It used to be neocons. In time, it will be something else.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#110

Post by bfuller »

rz2k wrote: post #82
bfuller wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it is any different in the USA or any other country for that matter? I don't know the answer but it stands to reason that if it works for the Russians it will work for the US aswell

Yes, it's different. Ask former classmates or relatives who went into journalism. You may hear they are reluctant to pursue some stories because they don't have enough proof to protect themselves against powerful people the stories could be construed to be slandering, but it's almost unheard of for western journalists to be worried about being assassinated at the rate journalists are assassinated in Russia and the te…

I wish there was some way to get objective data on this subject.

Maybe Russian journalists are indeed assassinated and western ones (mostly) aren't.

But there are a lot of effective means of coercion that don't involve killing someone, and can actually turn them into an asset rather than a liability..

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