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The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

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Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#101

Post by orionblastar »

andrewbinstock wrote: post #3

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

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Users earn credits for having comments and posts voted up by others who spend credits moderating content. Downvoting bad content earns credits, upvoting good content earns credits.

I exchaged 100 credits for 12 mBTC recently, a small amount maybe enough for a coffee.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#102

Post by xlayn »

I see an exploit of human interactions favoring employers, let me extend, for example below comment:

  __derek__ 5
  I attended npm Camp on Saturday, and the tl;dr version
  of their policy may fit the bill:
  > be actively kind
now imagine you are paired with 5 other "junior" programmers on trying to get some project to x state that requires 5 senior programmers.

  -saying that you require 5 senior, not juniors can be seen
   as non polite.
  -not helping them is not polite
  -go above and beyond to help them while you go the extra
   mile to deliver on time is both polite and altruistic...
   and of course you do on free your extra mile time and
   help the company avoid paying the senior devs...

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#103

Post by [deleted] »

mwfunk wrote: post #40
jbmorgado wrote: post #9

Actually I see the present problem as exactly the opposite. More and more we live in a culture where people think it's their right to feel offended and for anyone saying anything that makes them fell that way to just be shut up by someone (some faculty department for instance). It is becoming basically a Politically Correct culture of censorship and we keep seeing opinion texts (just like this one) that appeal to tha…

In my experience, by far the worst thing about political correctness as a cultural force has been anti-PC backlash over the last 20 years. In my lifetime, that's been a far more destructive force than even the most cartoonish forms of PC overreach that people like to cite. Since the mid-'90s we have lived in a world where assholes have been given a blank check to be as dumb and toxic as they want- all they have to do…

[deleted]

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#104

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

andrewbinstock wrote: post #3

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

I wouldn't say that HN moderation is always effective. There is a local groupthink that will get you downvoted fast for rational commentary that runs contrary to the popular consensus. Much like Berkeley students shouting down any opposing viewpoint they've predetermined to be invalid.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#105

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

overgard wrote: post #88

I used to work with this guy that was a prick to almost epic levels. We'll call him "Richard", because he was a Dick. (Not his real name of course) Most assholes are subtle, but somehow this guy kept his job despite being, basically, a monster. A few of the things he did: - Once, he kicked over a trashcan and stormed out for the rest of the day because I checked in a visual effect he didn't like (.. even though he ap…

Why was he kept on board for so long? With that much abuse I'd make it clear to my superiors that someone like him needs to have his future with the company reevaluated.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#106

Post by mintplant »

crucini wrote: post #97

This sentence jumped out at me: >You also have those individuals who are “not rude” but keep telling people to “suck it up”, to get “their act together” or to believe that disrespect is just a question of interpretation. Sounds like the author has a lot of conflicts. Sounds like he often receives unwanted advice to cool his jets. Talking about "assholes" is somewhat pointless because conflict is a fact of life, and i…

> >You also have those individuals who are “not rude” but keep telling people to “suck it up”, to get “their act together”

> fix yourself first. Become tactful, adroit and thick-skinned

Aren't you just demonstrating exactly what the author was complaining about?

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#107

Post by intended »

chongli wrote: post #44
Mz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests that the problem exists primarily b/c sites are willing to put up with bad behavior. Many people, even people running discussion forums with years of experience, simply do not know how to fix it and often believe it cannot be fixed. It is also common for them to "put out the fire with gasoline." On an email list, I used to say "fighting against the fighting is…

I think half of the reason why HN has succeeded to a degree has to do with the niche subject matter. This approach doesn't work on more general forums such as the large subreddits or twitter.

Niche subject matter is a barrier of entry allowing only a specific subset/types of person in. To be precise a certain type of personality self-selects to find a site like HN.

That fact alone makes a significant impact on moderation.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#108

Post by jonahx »

youngButEager wrote: post #93

The problem with calling out 'jerks, bozos and assholes' is contextual -- social norms/what works in NYC is quite different from small-town Indiana for example. Two ways to handle someone you think is being a 'jerk/bozo/asshole': 1) what percentage of their behavior is 'bad behavior'? 2) what is my threshold percentage for what I personally consider bad behavior? After I got married and witnessed PMS in action, the p…

> you'll meet highly effective people who add value to relationships and businesses who will make you unhappy.

Sure.

> "For better or worse." "Take the good with the bad." "Lighten up Francis."

That depends on what you want out of life. Leaving money on the table for the sake of happiness is perfectly reasonable too.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#109

Post by wutbrodo »

kiba wrote: post #49
chongli wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think half of the reason why HN has succeeded to a degree has to do with the niche subject matter. This approach doesn't work on more general forums such as the large subreddits or twitter.

I don't think that's true. HN is not about some specific subjects. We discussed everything from the Iraqi war to brexit to programming languages, etc.

While true, I think it has more to do with the way the relative niche-ness of HN shapes the community. The average person who comments on an Iraq war thread in HN is not selected from the same sample as the average person who comments on an Iraq war thread across all fora. HN consists of enough niche topics that the average person doesn't want to hang out here and make an account just to jump in on random Iraq war or Brexit threads (the current frontpage has about 25/30 tech-focused topics, many of which are beyond esoteric for most people). This shapes the community in a way that affects the make-up of the commenters on even such politically-charged threads.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#110

Post by DHMO »

I think this is great. People need to be aware of toxic behavior.

That said, though, I am often bugged at work because I am both an introvert and need to isolate my environment by wearing headphones. My team and others make assumptions that I'm unfriendly. It's frustrating and I've just started to go along with it and agree, "Yes, I'm wearing headphones because I am trying to shut you all out." The truth is, I am not mean, but I enjoy my alone time and need quiet to be productive.

Also, a lot of times, I've gotten frustrated with the leadership in the companies I've worked for over the years. Not every company- about half. And a lot of times in the past, I would vent to co-workers about this. I'd also be honest in reviews and surveys describing in detail what had been done incorrectly.

I don't think of myself as toxic, but because I've been so persistent at times talking about someone else failing to do their job correctly as a leader, people see me that way and as a pessimist.

I'm aware of this and have made attempts to be more optimistic. It has really helped out, but it's still tough. I often realize too late that I'm being down on something, even as I try to imagine a future where everything gets better.

I don't think I'm a jerk, bozo, or asshole, and I don't want to be any of those things. But, I also just want to be allowed to be who I am. I'm not always going to be sunshine.

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