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Twitter's Fucked

degoes.net

101–110 of 398 posts

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#101

People are tired from crybullies. We need a place where freedom of speech still matters. Freedom of speech doesn't include invading someone's privacy (this is illegal; doxxing, stalking etc. should be banned and actively fought against). But if you can't handle insults, it is not anyone's job to prevent them. There's always "Block" button, and then, there's always "delete account" button.

First, I don't think you speak for "People," just the kind of people who are just like you.

For example, I have never used the expression "crybullies," and if I did, it would probably be to describe the kind of white male who gets on a place like HN and cries that his freedom to be a raging asshole in somebody else's privately owned medium is being trampled by moderation.

But back to your point, I will argue with it in good faith. You say:

  > There's always "Block" button, and then, there's always "delete account" button.
This sounds (superficially) fair. If I insult Milo, he can ignore me, block me, or insult me back, and I can do the same to him. If either of us rage-quits Twitter, well, sucks-to-be-us.

Well here's the thing. What is it doesn't work like that in practice? What if the "block" button is not an effective mechanism for using Twitter positively? What if Milo blocks me, but thousands of my followers insult Milo, overwhelming his ability to block them all?

It's more than just his feelings, if his entire experience is flooded with my army of trolls, he simply can't keep up with the tools in place.

And the kicker is this: People know this, so they "game the system" by flooding your mentions with so many new and different accounts that you simply can't block them all. Overwhelmed by a DDOS, you delete your account.

IF there were effective tools for ignoring insults and floods, I would agree with you that you have options, and if you delete your account that is entirely your personal choice. But in the current design, Twitter provides a grossly imbalanced power dynamic between those who wish to abuse other users, and those who wish to use the system without abusing other users.

Where does this imbalance lead us? To social network where only trolls remain standing. That is not in Twitter's best interests, nor does it have long-term survivability even if they thought it was. This dynamic has been repeated many, many times, and so far it has always worked out the exact same way; When the trolls arrive, you either moderate actively, or your social network dies.

Now, you say:

  > if you can't handle insults, it is not anyone's job to prevent them
Actually, when you run a social network, it is your job to decide how it is to be used. We're on a moderated platform right now, and it is someone's job to prevent certain types of speech from taking place.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with whether any one person or group of people can handle insults or not. Hacker News simply does not wish to cultivate an insult-heavy tone, period. So it has guidelines, and it enforces the guidelines, and people like you and I decide that the benefits of a moderated conversation outweigh the freedom to unleash our raging id.

Should Twitter be less like voat and more like facebook? That is a question of opinion. But it is not necessarily true that it's not anybody's job to police the the of a social network, and it is certainly not even remotely true that there is always the block button, because the consequence of Twitter's current design choices creates an asymmetry between abusers and the abused.

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#102

Speech is not violence. The author's conflation of the two trivializes actual physical violence.

http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/aboutnvc/nonviolent_c... https://www.heartland.edu/documents/idc/What%20is%20violent%...

Again, in both cases it's using violence as a rhetorical trick.

Verbal and emotional abuse of children are serious issues, but they do NOT have to be violent for them to be horrible. The conflation of the two muddies the language that we have to describe the events that happen to us.

If someone says, my parents were very violent to me, what would you assume happened? Doesn't knowing that there was physical abuse help give context that helps you respond to the situation?

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#103
post #89
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says that Milo didn't deserve what he got, and I agree. You may not agree with his politics but people of all stripes have done worse. I guess we'll end up with a conservative twitter clone, and a liberal twitter, and no-one will ever face the "danger" of seeing viewpoints they disagree with.

Conservatives are ok with freedom of speech, 'safe zones' are invented by progressives.

Definitely not true of current neocons. They use freedom of speech as a cover for "let me say whatever I want to say" while ignoring it when it suits them.

As a live-right-now example, the mods of /r/The_Donald on Reddit are preemtively banning users before Trump's AMA to prevent dissent, and have stated plainly they will delete any unflattering questions.

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#104
I know this sentiment will be unpopular here. But so am I (to the point where moderators have "rate limited" me until such time as I stop speaking on SJ issues) so... I think it's no surprise that suddenly the previously pro-twitter and "pro freedom of speech and welcoming spaces for all even if they're unpopular" folks are mad at twitter.

This article is hot on the heels of twitter banning Milo Y for cheerfully orchestrating yet another race baiting campaign against a black woman in cinema, and just a few months after Degoes himself got a lot of heat on Twitter and lost nearly all corporate sponsorship, having to rely on the businesses of friends for reduced funding for LambdaConf. This is a "hot take" in the Twitter parlance. And of course, banning Milo and shunning LambdaConf didn't fix the root causes or stem the tide of harassment of other behaviors that make the twitterLeft continue to be mad.

To directly address TFA's content, it's not possible in the modern era to be "non-political" because the definition of "non-political" varies so radically. More on this in a moment, but being "non-political" is neocon code for, "not offending me" (in the same way that "safe space" is actually code for "inoffensive space") and that's a rather complex and customized product to deliver.

It's very interesting though. We've all ended up in a place where the platform sort of holds us hostage. We feel compelled to share our bite-sized rhetoric chunks and then castigate people for being "unfair" and banning "rational argument" without considering that (and I stress, all sides of every issue has these people) a nearly unending torrent of ill-considered hate vomits at everyone involved in even the minutest controversy. _It's totally irrational to demand people remain rational under these circumstances._ The neurotypical human simply cannot be expected to handle the way Twitter amplifies negative data.

And yet, we cannot possibly deny the pivotal importance Twitter (and in abstract, media like it) has had on rapidly disseminating information that I think most people here would absolutely agree should get out. For example, Twitter rapidly spreads media and information about social unrest worldwide, has laid bare many abuses of official power in the West, and has been incredibly important for disseminating viewpoints during the current American election.

This conversation is valuable even though it is "political." It has value in every case where it brings raised awareness about the human experiences that define political conflict, social unrest, and violence worldwide.

The key difference is that in every case where twitter is used for news reporting and rapidly sharing personal perspectives, it trumps every other media. Twitter simply outshines every other media sharing design we've ever seen for news. Degoes is dead and demonstrably wrong that it's only cute and tidy tweets that get huge sums of retweets.

Many of the most successful tweets in the sphere of "politics" are just raw information. "Donald Trump said this." "Egypt's government is doing this." "This is happening in Libya." The same 140 character limit that quashes all but the most clipped conversations and promotes media actually severely limits the spin one can actually craft around any given fact and strongly favors media delivered so fast that any substantial working or processing has to be automated. That's probably to the platform's overall credit.

If Twitter has a future, it's as a news platform that makes everyone into a journalist. If Twitter is doomed, it's because it forces everyone into a common scrum of a debate where even if we could type more to more eloquently debate, it wouldn't matter because the overwhelming pressure of people tossing out quit hate fastballs would erode the conversation.

Those of us who are opponents of Degoes worldview overall are still in violent and absolute agreement that the platform needs more tools to curb 'harassment'. While we may differ on the subject of what harassment is in this case, we agree that ultimately Twitter needs to develop sophisticated tools for managing incoming content and filtering it.

They've refuse to do so. Maybe 2-3 years ago, we could argue it wasn't feasible at scale, but I think the industry has progressed to the point where we don't believe that anymore. It's entirely feasible to do even basic bayesian classifiers at "twitter scale". It could be done client side, even!

Ultimately, there have to be trapdoors in this for news and shocking information. A social conservative may not like it if we bring up some of Donald Trump's more outrageous turns of phrase, but if it's timely and corroborated data then it probably has value, and I suspect most people would appreciate receiving it even if it's only from one wing of their social graph.

Twitter's successful future isn't in some clever blocklist as Degoes suggests. I don't think it's about longer formats or an emphasis on rich media, either. It's in deeply understanding the content of tweets and finding a way to push timely, critical information to you via an amenable arm of your social graph. If you need to hear about the Muslim Spring through Pat Robertson to digest that information, so be it. That is you. If you need to hear about it through your favorite liberal pundit Colbert, that too is you. This is semantic analysis and machine learning in an unprecedented level of ambition, but I don't think anyone doubts it can technically be done.

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#105

Yep. Yep, yep, yep. And Twitter's response is to ban some, but not all harassers, using the algorithm of "whoever is high profile and we don't like politically." That gives said harassers surprisingly legitimate reasons to claim censorship by Twitter as a company, despite the fact that they were in clear violation of Twitter's ToS and deserved to be banned. I refer of course to the Milo Yiannopoulos situation (edit:…

I have personally lost the belief that you can actually change someone's opinion on almost anything. So an echo chamber doesn't have to be a bad thing. I think people overestimate the value of having your beliefs challenged, does it ever really change someone's mind? If that's the case, you might as well view twitter as entertainment and to clue into the things you care about, in which case it can be pretty useful.

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#106
post #85

People are tired from crybullies. We need a place where freedom of speech still matters. Freedom of speech doesn't include invading someone's privacy (this is illegal; doxxing, stalking etc. should be banned and actively fought against). But if you can't handle insults, it is not anyone's job to prevent them. There's always "Block" button, and then, there's always "delete account" button.

Explain to me how effective blocking individuals is when you're being spammed by dozens and hundreds of people with so little to do that they will happily go create egg accounts to continue harassing you. It's not practical or feasible to block all of them. So people should delete their accounts because they get brigaded? To hell with that, and with the people who think that is a social norm worth protecting. "Crybul…

Without taking a stance on either side of this contentious issue, I would note that it should be technically feasible to offer an option which would auto-block any account that hasn't established a certain extent of "not a troll sockpuppet" bona fides - for example, by being more than a few weeks old, and having a certain degree of engagement with the community at large. Accounts which fail to meet these criteria, and persist in attempts to abuse someone already recognized as being targeted, might be automatically suspended or banned.

I don't care for Twitter particularly, but it's a thing that exists, and it's not likely to go away any time soon. And I don't care for shitposter brigades at all. As the current brouhaha demonstrates, manual intervention in high-profile cases is no solution at all. Twitter's engineering team is easily capable of an automated solution; all they need is for their management to turn them loose on the problem. I'm not sure why that hasn't yet happened. Of course it's impossible for any automated solution to make everyone happy - but what we're looking at right now is a response that has made everyone unhappy. Twitter can do better. I hope they take this incident as sufficient reason to do so.

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#107

140 Characters; 100% agree, it should have been a minimum requirement of the message length instead maximum.

Effective comment, and you still have 32 characters to spare.

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#108
This makes no sense. Several of the issues he identifies are also problems on Facebook but they haven't hurt that network:

140 Characters: I rarely see "thoughtful exchange of complex ideas" on Facebook which allows as much text as you can type.

Perverse Mechanics: it's the same metrics used on Facebook and every other social network out there.

Terrible Filtering: Same filtering as Facebook.

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#109
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I created a parody account for a celebrity, which was getting quite popular. Without discussing it first, they just removed the account and ignored 3 x emails asking them why. I was gutted.

Well, like any good social media platform, they have no actual support. It's impossible by design to ever speak to an actual human who works at Twitter except via form-email smoke signals.

Well, having people answer phones costs money, and you are not paying for Twitter. Your "data" and "eyeballs" aren't actually worth much. Would you be ok with a premium rate number where you pay per minute?

Re: Twitter's Fucked

#110
post #41

Every platform that is public and anonmyous runs afoul of this, this isn't just twitter. You can look at Youtube comments, reddit, pretty much any forum. What's missing is that other platforms, like Facebook, took a very hard stance on this and forced people to signup as their real identities. Twitter, can easily follow suit. That won't fix all of the problems, but it will go towards improving things and it won't req…

HN is public and anonymous and mostly manages to not suffer this problem, due to the heavy manual labour of the moderators and a whole lot of selection bias in its userbase. To a slightly lesser extent, Slashdot has also licked that problem: for any story that attracts enough comments (more than 300) the top rated ones are often pretty good and the worthless ones start auto-collapsed. Even though Slashdot gets a lot…

Also Metacritic has managed to keep foul comments under control.
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