Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change • Hacker News Board

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#101

Post by Declanomous » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:43 PM UTC

jsingleton wrote: post #88

cconcepts wrote: post #9

I have no doubt that climate change is a problem. I have kids, I dont want to give them a hospital pass. I've tried to stop living such a carbon dependant lifestyle but I look outside and my efforts feel futile. How do I REALLY do something about this other than a few pretentious yet barely discomforting lifestyle changes and the odd empassioned few sentences at dinner parties? Start pushing for a carbon tax? Start a…

You can do a lot in your own life that will also save you money. I won't go into too much detail because, as you note, this has a small effect unless lots of people do it. But some simple ideas that are cheap and boring. - Eat less meat or cut it out fully (or at least not every day) - Fly less and use long distance trains where you can - Insulate your property to reduce energy use - Ride a bicycle and take public tr…

As far as I'm aware flying generates fewer greenhouse gas emissions than any either trains, cars or buses over long distances. (At least in the US, where our rail infrastructure is freight-centric and diesel powered.) The argument against flying is that the greenhouse gas emissions end up high up, which could contribute to the greenhouse gas effect. However, long distance passenger trains in the US reduce the freight capacity of railroads, and the railroad is vastly more efficient than tractor-trailers when it comes to freight transport. This holds true even if the freight is transported in the relatively-un-aerodynamic intermodal container.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#102

Post by sdoering » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:45 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #95

Brakenshire wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the two sides you describe are correct, at least globally. In the UK, 70-80% of people agree that anthropogenic climate change is happening, and the Green party (who have the kind of position you're describing) only get 5% of the vote. You're presenting everyone who thinks that action needs to be taken as part of a much smaller, unrepresentative group. Also, I agree that flat blocking of nuclear is unre…

flat blocking of nuclear is unreasonable. But in my opinion disagreement on the issue is a relatively marginal issue in the general sweep of tackling climate change. The new DNC platform coming out of the convention this week doesn't seem to agree with you. It focuses solely on renewable sources, sweeping nuclear under the carpet. 70-80% of people agree that anthropogenic climate change is happening I don't understan…

The point is, that if it isn't anthropomorphic, then there is (at least in some peoples' minds) nothing to do about it and we can safely ignore it. We can keep doing our stuff without second thoughts.

So "finger pointing" to humanity isn't that bad of a tactic to get things done.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#103

Post by Declanomous » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:48 PM UTC

r_smart wrote: post #60

pmyjavec wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word hippy and the negative connotations associated with it are fascinating to me, it's amazing how western societies have created a negative connotation to describe a person who is probably more caring, conscious and alternate thinking than your average citizen. Basically a hippy is someone guilty of 'thought crime'. It's an amazing device.

I used to hold an opinion of hippies similar to yours. Then 1. I watched the documentary on Woodstock and saw the disaster they made out of that place and 2. Spent a lot of time around my cousin and her friends when she was in art school. My conclusion was that hippies aren't any better or worse than other people. They suffer the same flaws as everyone else. The downside is that they seem to put forward this air of h…

Well apparently the farmer that hosted Woodstock was genuinely appreciative for everyone coming out there, and came out and thanked everyone on the last day of the festival.

I agree with your sentiments overall though.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#104

Post by vkou » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:49 PM UTC

chx wrote: post #14

NumberCruncher wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> scientists have been anticipating climate change for decades, but now we know that what they anticipated was not as accurate as we thought. It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future

Aye but predictions are necessary. If there's a 4C global temperature rise that displaces 760M people. To put this into perspective, about 1M migrants in a year almost collapsed Europe's political system. We need to know how quick that happens so we can begin to do something. Dam, evacuate etc.

More likely, we will cover the borders with barbed wire, and machineguns.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#105

Post by CWuestefeld » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #13

cconcepts wrote: post #9

I have no doubt that climate change is a problem. I have kids, I dont want to give them a hospital pass. I've tried to stop living such a carbon dependant lifestyle but I look outside and my efforts feel futile. How do I REALLY do something about this other than a few pretentious yet barely discomforting lifestyle changes and the odd empassioned few sentences at dinner parties? Start pushing for a carbon tax? Start a…

If I said that apples were the cause of global warming and that to avoid catastrophe you had to avoid eating apples it wouldn't worry you nearly as much, would it? I mean apples are delicious, but they aren't worth the misery that extreme weather will inflict on us. There are also a lot of people who depend on apple production to make a living. We would have to find some way for them to transition to something else f…

How would you convince people to stop eating apples?

One step in the right direction would be to stop (literally!) fighting to make apples as inexpensive as possible. We could allow the market for apples reflect the true costs of their discovery, harvesting, processing, and transport, with no subsidies.

The price would likely be significantly higher, and many people would curtail their apple consumption of their own accord.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#106

Post by CWuestefeld » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

sdoering wrote: post #102

CWuestefeld wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

flat blocking of nuclear is unreasonable. But in my opinion disagreement on the issue is a relatively marginal issue in the general sweep of tackling climate change. The new DNC platform coming out of the convention this week doesn't seem to agree with you. It focuses solely on renewable sources, sweeping nuclear under the carpet. 70-80% of people agree that anthropogenic climate change is happening I don't understan…

The point is, that if it isn't anthropomorphic, then there is (at least in some peoples' minds) nothing to do about it and we can safely ignore it. We can keep doing our stuff without second thoughts. So "finger pointing" to humanity isn't that bad of a tactic to get things done.

You seem to be arguing that if there were an asteroid that's going to collide with the earth, we would all ignore it.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#107

Post by ipsin » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #99

yequalsx wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only viable, realistic solution is for people to stop having as many children as they currently do. The population of the planet is beyond carrying capacity at current levels of consumption.

The Malthusian argument is threadbare and false. Humanity has always been on the brink of demise. We've always been barely able to feed our people. This took us from hunter-gatherers to the development of agriculture, on to irrigation, fertilization, terraced farming, crop rotation, selective breeding, genetic manipulation. In terms of energy, as we depleted the forests of wood for burning, we've gone through similar…

This "we've gotten this far!" argument applies to global warming as well, doesn't it?

I don't believe the proposition that global warming is not a problem because human ingenuity will fix it.

Our land and oceans are already straining under our population load.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#108

Post by adrianN » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

NumberCruncher wrote: post #91

adrianN wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is too slow. We have a little more than twenty years at current production levels to stop producing GHGs [1]. Reducing the population (to 0?) takes a lot longer. [1] http://www.trillionthtonne.org/

>> Reducing the population takes a lot longer. There are also involuntary reduction methods...

As the saying goes: you first.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#109

Post by toasterlovin » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

uhtred wrote: post #73

staticelf wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I no longer eat meat and a big reason of why is it sucks for the climate. :)

Good on you. I've drastically reduced the amount of meat I eat to about once a week, for many reasons including environmental. I feel western society almost worships meat (especially in America - bacon, anyone?) and links it to masculinity. I think most people would rather watch the world burn than give up meat.

To my mind, if you are concerned about your impact on the environment, what kind of food you eat is not nearly as important as how much money you spend.

It's a coarse grained rule of thumb, but money basically represents a share of the world's abundance. When you spend money, you are claiming a part of that abundance for yourself. And the more you spend, the larger share you are claiming.

So if you eat a vegetarian meal at a restaurant at $40, that is worse for the environment than eating $10 worth of meat at home.

Things are further confounded by what kind of non-meat products you eat. For instance, fruit and most leafy-green vegetables have a similar cost per calorie to meat. Thus, I would argue that they have about the same environmental impact as meat.

So really, if you want to tread lightly on the environment, I think you want to be eating a lot of grains, vegetable oils, nuts, milk and (less expensive) cheese. You want them all to be non-organic. And you want to be preparing your meals yourself.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#110

Post by fsloth » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

cconcepts wrote: post #9

I have no doubt that climate change is a problem. I have kids, I dont want to give them a hospital pass. I've tried to stop living such a carbon dependant lifestyle but I look outside and my efforts feel futile. How do I REALLY do something about this other than a few pretentious yet barely discomforting lifestyle changes and the odd empassioned few sentences at dinner parties? Start pushing for a carbon tax? Start a…

The problem is humanity. The assholes who own the public mindshare on green issues are misogynic nuts who oppose our best chance for clean energy - nuclear - for ideological reasons. The fossil fuel industry sits on so much unburnt fuel that their financial incentives to turn our world to shit to liquidate their capital is unresistable - jusy like an addict can't resist their narcotic despite it destroys them.

Governments are the only bodies that could do something to this but it appears right wing nuts have captured the political arena in western countries by focusing on unhelpful non-issues to further their political ambitions.

Nobody cares about the environment unless the doomsday comes nexr week. And the doomsday wont come - it will be a slow boiling, and we all will be the frogs.

Personally, I don't think there is anything a person without political connections can do to really do anything - except to shift the general discourse to environmental issues up until we reach the point where we in general understand environmental issues to be moral issues of utmost importance - and thus drive general policies towards sane goals. The trend seems positive - recycling seems to be a big thing and 'green is good' - but so far for the majority environmental issues seem to be lifestyle issues and not critical issues.

In this light, I suppose anything one can do in ones communities to raise the awareness on ecological issues is good. One of the main problems of communcating with the public is that the environmental agenda front is filled with self-righteous nutcases without critical analysis skills and who are more like a crazy crystall healers rather than a Jaques Cousteau style pragmatists.

Now that I think of it, the more pragmatic geeks we can get involved in ecological issues the better. The world deserves a better breed of ecological afficionados.